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  #76  
Old 2002-11-24, 23:17
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What exactly is a meatball anyways? Define.

I guess were all just meatballs then.


Because like DF said, by your way of thinking, hell, abortion could theorhetically continue until the child is no longer a minor at 18 years old.

/me agrees with FP and DF.
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  #77  
Old 2002-11-24, 23:30
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  #78  
Old 2002-11-25, 00:34
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I dont think little humans look like that
Seen of people think nowadays, I'm sure that before my death I'll have the right to that : back to 50 before J.C, the parents have right of death or life on their children until they were 18 years old....sad


BTW - professionnal deformation, it's horrible :
all along those posts I cant stop reading metaballs, metaballs, METABALLS !!! A sort of destiny sign imo (and of visual typo also). That's decided, I'll make the last model in metaballs, and it'll be a human foetus. ermhh it's more than time to go to bed imo.....

PS : indeed, with that logic, we could kill all the CS players : no visible signs of intelligence, of communication...

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  #79  
Old 2002-11-25, 06:44
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You blistering idiots!

Did i not say that abortion should be limited to 3 months of pregnancy?!

Ofcourse the meatball becomes sentient, but we must get rid of it before it does!!
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #80  
Old 2002-11-25, 11:27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
You blistering idiots!

Did i not say that abortion should be limited to 3 months of pregnancy?!

Ofcourse the meatball becomes sentient, but we must get rid of it before it does!!
but how do you know it dosn't become sentient at 2 months and 3 weeks?
As Ive said 100 billion times, we just dont know!!!
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  #81  
Old 2002-11-25, 12:08
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And if a mother has a 3 months and 1 day old baby ? OMG what do we do ? And if her baby is one month and 2 days old then ? During the night, pouf, the baby has become sentient and so living-worth. All simply. So we cant touch it anymore, else it's like killing you or your mother or any of those humans that have the right to live.

You dont seem to see that humans arent robots that turn one one day while they grow in their mother's body, humans have a soul from their conception and we dont have the right to unlink that soul for the reason that it cant yet communicate its fear and it's will to live.

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  #82  
Old 2002-11-25, 16:05
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Quote:
What if the baby is 3 months and 1 day old?
That remark is so stupid, i ain't gonna respond to that.

And why is a sentient worth-living?

If an abortion would prevent a human from suffering, then it should be done.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #83  
Old 2002-11-25, 17:56
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You wont respond cause you cant
Whatever you would say, it'd be illogical, cause nothing happens before or after the limit you arbitrarily set for the abortion. So if they can before 3 months, mothers will abort after 3 months, after 1 years....and you wont have anything to prevent them from.

Quote:
And why is a sentient worth-living?
If an abortion would prevent a human from suffering, then it should be done.
THERE is the point. You simply admit that for you others' lives, the humans' lives arent worth anything. To protect slightly the fake wellfare of women that would want to abort (most of time cause of the pressure of their environnment, and especially of the pressure of their f*cking rabbit partner that says "you gotta choose between that child and me"), you'd without any kind of remorse destroy the innocent lives that arent yet strong enough to protect themselves. It wouldnt cost anything to let the child be born and put in adoption, but anyway, the simplest is the best, let's kill all what doesnt look like an over armoured warrior.

-------

Oooooh it's so gentle ! In fact, you just want to prevent that child from suffering later. That's true, he'll be in a difficult social situation, not loved by his parents, he could one day have a car accident even...ooh let's avoid his pain. *couic* no more child, no more possible pain.

The hell's floor is covered with good inetntions, really -_-. But well sorted charity begins by oneself, as you should know, so please suicide immediatly, indeed that's not cause you're sentient that you're worth living, and furthermore who knows how you could suffer in the future ? An illness comes so quickly, I say, and furthermore you'll make the joy of the women that you could meet, take and make abort later
But that's YOUR way of thinking, I'm sure that if we had asked you that (if we could...) just after your conception you wouldnt have that opinion

So let the humans decide of their own life, and for that the only way is to let them live and learn to communicate. Then ask everyone if he would have preffered to be aborted. You'd be surprised that most would say no.
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  #84  
Old 2002-11-25, 18:48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin

And why is a sentient worth-living?

If an abortion would prevent a human from suffering, then it should be done.
Ok,either you dont understand sentients (I hope)
Or you are serverly twisted,sick person.
Would you really kill one person too improve the
life of another???
The only thing that can possibly make killing a sentient life acceptable, is when it would save 1 or more other sentient lifes.
===
ok, I disagree with FP 90% of the time, I totaly disgree with his views on human life being fundimentaly above all others, and especial his views that machines cant ever be sentient.
But still, In my view this:
Quote:
So let the humans decide of their own life, and for that the only way is to let them live and learn to communicate.
Is the wisest thing anyone has posted here so far.
It somes up the argument nicely.
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  #85  
Old 2002-11-25, 22:41
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OMG there is a serial killer in the forum !!! Police !!!
--------
Thx DF

The thing is, that view on humans superior to other species lets me destroy the spiders and scorpions that bug me without remorses (well handy when they're in the bathroom ).
And I've already tried philosophical discusions with my *now dead* gerbils, and I can affirm you it was quite a defeat .

And also, you wont be able to prove me that machines can think before we were all dead (when you see the current IA, we got the time to wait imo), so I dont take too many risks
And I've already tried philosophical discusions with |Joop| and company, and it was deplorable I say
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  #86  
Old 2002-11-25, 23:06
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Well, best not get started on that again FP
Basicaly the difference is you see humans as fundimentaly different, whereas I just see them as the top rung of a ladder.
You are probably right about AI not being seen in out lifetime.
Well, depends how fast computers can get.
Not that I believe the speed is nesscerly for AI, but it would be nesscery to simulate billions of years of evolution in software.

Quote:
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--Stephen Hawking
ok, thats Life,quite different from sentients, but I think its a cool quote
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  #87  
Old 2002-11-25, 23:20
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Darwin VS Genesis, round 2...

I dont think you'll find enough crazy programmers on earth to implement all that

Humz when did SH die ? He seems to forget all the funny life forms we've created so far, mortal russian bacteries, viruses, windows XP......


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  #88  
Old 2002-11-26, 00:09
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hehe, hes still alive
Guest stared on the Simpsons once or twice, and futurama once, and Star Trek...
hmz..
amazing how he has time for physics
--
btw, I didn't mean implement the earth, that would be crazy ('cause its already been done ), just the evolutionary laws and apply it too a decent virtual enviroment.
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  #89  
Old 2002-11-26, 02:43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
That remark is so stupid, i ain't gonna respond to that.

And why is a sentient worth-living?

If an abortion would prevent a human from suffering, then it should be done.
First of all, your remark is stupid.

Abortion is human suffering.
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  #90  
Old 2002-11-26, 06:52
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Abortion is not killing!!

Abortion is a pre-emotive move.

You do it BEFORE it is actually a life-form.
That's why in america there is a 3 months limit to da abortion.

If it's just a little meatball, there's nothing wrong with terminating it.
It is not a life form. it is a POTENTIAL life form.
And there many other ways of POTENTIAL life forms.
There's nothing wrong with preventing a life, because abortion is just like NOT having sex, or wearing a condom, you prevent the creation of a baby. what difference does it make if it's a meatball or not, as long as it's not sentient.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #91  
Old 2002-11-26, 11:38
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How do you know that?
Thats the whole freaking thing we have been trying to explain.
Saying its 3 months is pure total guesework.
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  #92  
Old 2002-11-26, 14:12
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Nu-uh!

In the US the abortion limit is for the 1st trimester,
there's a reason for that. it is not guessing.

And I'm no biolgist, but i'm assuming that something with such a tiny number of cells is not sentient. It's like killing paramiciums..


Double-J> How is abortion human suffering?
no one feels any pain. besides maybe the mom, pain deep inside her heart....but that's not why people are against abortion.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #93  
Old 2002-11-26, 14:55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin

there's a reason for that. it is not guessing.
No, it is gueseing.
There is absolutely no knowledge about what causes sentient. It may be a soul, or an emergant phononmon based on the nerons or even a funimental partical that attachs itself to body some time after conception.
But neither has had ANY evidence for at all.
Sentients is just a big mystery.
As such we cant assume somethings not sentient simple by the way it looks.
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  #94  
Old 2002-11-26, 15:24
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Pfff...thank you Mr. Know-It-All Darkflame..j/k


Arrr...

Even though most of you probably don't agree with me, I think that a sentient meatball deserves to live exactly like any other sentient, it has no superior rights, therefore terminating it is no more different than taking a birth prevention pill.

If you believe that a very young feteus is sentient, than you must say that the "Day after" pills are also murder.
You see? that's why it is ridiculous, because it has no limit.

Being Sentient doesn't give anything the right to live.
Ofcourse it sounds cruel when saying "I am going to destroy this baby, because he is unwanted"

You'd probably say "who are you to decide such things?!"

But, if we can put off having babies untill it is more convenient for us, than we can also have abortions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #95  
Old 2002-11-26, 16:39
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If you where paying attention I said EVERYTHING after conception is potentialy murder

Before conception=fine, because we are certain there is no sentient.

After conception=potentialy muder, because we have no clue when the sentients forms or enters the body.

That simple?

Quote:
But, if we can put off having babies untill it is more convenient for us, than we can also have abortions.
One is potentialy destorying sentients, the other isn't.

Quote:
Being Sentient doesn't give anything the right to live.
And as a mater of fact, YES, Sentient DOES give you a right to live.
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  #96  
Old 2002-11-26, 17:12
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But how is preventing a creation of a sentient better than destroying a sentient?

Even if it was a sentient, which i think i t was not, it can't feel pain, it doesn't have a nerve system yet.

So it's all good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #97  
Old 2002-11-26, 17:45
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Quote:
But how is preventing a creation of a sentient better than destroying a sentient?
Look, if I kill you thats destorying a sentient life.
I am a murderer.
My choice never to have kids however, is not murder because at no point is a thinking enity, being destoryed.
As long as I use pre-conception contraceptives, then there is absolutely no chance a sentients is ended.
---
oh, and the pain argument is dumb.
Its not the pain thats bad, its the fact you are being killed!
I mean, surely your not saying murder is ok as long as its painless?
===
Of course, you could say anyone deing goes onto an afterlife, blar blar blar so its ok.
It may be true, I believe in multiply layers of realitys, and that sentience is a fundimental, undestoryable partical.
But thats a believe, I dont know that.
For all I know death may be the end, a complete absense of exists, the sentients dosn't continue in any form.
And if thats true, everyone should be given the longest possible life.
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  #98  
Old 2002-11-26, 17:57
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Ofcourse painless murder isn't right.

But the meatball has no will, feelings, or memories.

Are you saying that killing sentients is wrong?
Well every little bug you ever killed is sentient, POSSIBLY any plant, maybe you hair cells are sentient, so what?

Abortion is not killing the baby, it's preventing the creation of a baby, you don't let the meatball evolve.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #99  
Old 2002-11-26, 19:30
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Quote:
Ofcourse painless murder isn't right.
in that case :

Quote:
Even if it was a sentient, which i think i t was not, it can't feel pain, it doesn't have a nerve system yet.
So it's all good.
...was a completely stupid statement to make.
=======

Quote:
But the meatball has no will, feelings, or memories.
You said, supposing it is sentient.
If its sentient is HAS a will, and feelings.

Quote:
Well every little bug you ever killed is sentient, POSSIBLY any plant, maybe you hair cells are sentient, so what?
ok, you clearly have some weird memory problem.
Ive explained this 200 billion times already.
Just read what I wrote further up.

Quote:
Abortion is not killing the baby, it's preventing the creation of a baby, you don't let the meatball evolve.
Ok, I give up.

We dont know when the sentient goes into the body, therefor we dont know whether its killing or not.
If we dont know, then its wrong too kill it.

If you dont understand that, then you are frelling morron, as it has been explained too you a over and over again.

If you got a good counter argument, by all means say it, but dont repeat statements I have already showen too be wrong.
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  #100  
Old 2002-11-26, 20:01
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First of all, i would like to comment you have a very rude way of carrying out a discussion.


Listen to me you glibbering fool,
not a single thing I said was shown to be wrong.

You just take the things I say, and translate them in a stupid farfetched way.

The fact remains that the meatball doesn't feel or think.
Unless ofcourse, you count his "Soul" or whatever, which is all unproven unscientific shite.

I don't care if the meatball is sentient or not,
to think and feel, you need a brain and a nerve system, not a soul.b

Are you saying abortions should be stopped? ALL of them? would that be wise?

Most people who are against abortion say it's beause your preventing human life, but YOU are against it because you think the undeveloped little blob of meat is sentient, which he probably is not.

What's more, you ignore what i say, and than you call me stupid for repeating them.

You entire argument is based on rubbish, guessing a feteus is sentient, you can't possibly believe that thing has a will? even advanced life forms like insect have a very feeble will.

Abortion is NOT murder, it is birth control, women are not baby factories, they can choose to create life when they please.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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