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  #1  
Old 2008-01-04, 02:07
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Iowa caucuses

Follow the Iowa caucuses, the first round of the democratic and republican presidential nomination, live on MSNBC: mms://msnbc.wm.llnwd.net/msnbc_2_live_8825
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  #2  
Old 2008-01-04, 02:18
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Ron Paul at 10% in the polls?
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  #3  
Old 2008-01-04, 02:33
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Yes, thankfully. I support McCain btw.
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  #4  
Old 2008-01-04, 02:37
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This will be interesting. Also, don't believe the polls. Especially not right now.

Edit: http://www.libertybroadcastnetwork.org/ - This is a very nice initiative.
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  #5  
Old 2008-01-04, 03:57
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Huckabee is leading big after 15% counted. Fox News have already presented him as winner of the Iowa Caucus. The democratic race is very right, soon 1/3 counted. According to entrance polls, Obama and Clinton have more support than Edwards. Massive turnout compared to 2004.
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  #6  
Old 2008-01-04, 11:49
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ehh, gustav your republican?:s

Obama here! Huckabee is a lune.

edit:- Obama Won, wohoo!
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  #7  
Old 2008-01-04, 15:06
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Yes, thankfully. I support McCain btw.
Seconded. And kudos, btw.
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  #8  
Old 2008-01-04, 15:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axx View Post
ehh, gustav your republican?:s

Obama here! Huckabee is a lune.

edit:- Obama Won, wohoo!
No, I am neither republican or democrat. But this time I think that a victory for the democratic party would be quite devastating for the world (better for the US on the domestic level), considering their views on free trade and Iraq. John McCain is an honorable politician, who is non-partisan maverick. He does what is right, not what the party thinks is right (for example he opposed Bush/Rumsfeld's disastrous Iraq strategy all the time, and dared to take distance the conservative movement's vulgare stance towards illegal immigrants). But I am unsure whether I will support any of the other candidates vs Clinton or Obama, perhaps Giuliani.
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  #9  
Old 2008-01-04, 19:30
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There's only one problem with your position. McCain might have some nifty views, but no president can really get away with his views alone can they? I may be wrong, but then again, i havnt even bothered to research his views. And Giuliani is dangerous.
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  #10  
Old 2008-01-05, 17:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gustav sweden
But this time I think that a victory for the democratic party would be quite devastating for the world (better for the US on the domestic level), considering their views on free trade and Iraq.
Could you elaborate on that?


Also I read the political positions of some of the candidates and Obama's seem pretty good.
Also McCain was in favour of the iraq war and i really can't agree with that.
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  #11  
Old 2008-01-05, 17:20
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I don't really like Obama, but for a rather prosaic reason, I don't trust him, he doesn't look like a trustworthy person, unlike Nelson Mandela for instance. The only candidate there that creates this trust is Paul, especially considering he is not founded by interest groups.
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  #12  
Old 2008-01-07, 04:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
Could you elaborate on that?


Also I read the political positions of some of the candidates and Obama's seem pretty good.
Also McCain was in favour of the iraq war and i really can't agree with that.
Well, it doesn't really matter now whether the decision to go to war was right or not. What matters now is making the best out of the mess that is in the middle east, protecting the people there from violence and make way for democracy (which is in our selfinterest as westerners well), and John McCain is in my eyes the most qualified for that. The democratic presidential candidates (except for Biden, who has pulled out after Iowa) are all putting partisanship before the well-being of the Iraqi people. They call for quick withdrawal without discussing the consequences of such an action. Like it or not, the US entered Iraq and toppled the Saddam regime - in my view they need to stay until security and freedom can be guaranteed for the Iraqi people.

Also, McCain is the biggest free trader of the likely candidates. The main change that has occured in the democratic party since the years of Bill Clinton is that the labor unions' power have increased. The result of this is that all the democratic candidates - even Obama, who is an intellectual - are against free trade.

Foreign policy and free trade (and of course that a president of the leading country in the free world must be against torture, which a couple of the republicans are not) are the most important points for me in this contest, so I go for McCain.

There are many issues where I agree more with the democratic candidates, such as health care, abortion, gay marriage. On immigration, McCain has a reasonable view, even though he has sharpened his tone a bit to get elected. He has changed opinion on the Bush tax cuts, which he voted against. I don't like this either - the tax cuts were too much directed at the upper levels of the income ladder, but I think that it is necessary for him to do that to get elected.

Now it seems like he has a big chance of beating Romney and winning New Hampshire, and that will mean that the republican race is mainly between him and Giuliani (I don't believe that much in Huckabee, he is too much on odds with the party establishment).

This, despite all the Romney TV attack ads...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFFcybCx_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9r6xgw9FFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfRBUuO6jB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrIkmrTqEv4

McCain's responses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbawV6mRfYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bce2rev5mq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2zda7E7OA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy7YAyLUCQM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3DCqvOwuyM

Good McCain ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg9llmjeQio
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  #13  
Old 2008-01-08, 03:10
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Gustav -

Iraq is a mess, and no matter which candidate comes into power, they will have to sort out some deal to stabilize or shift responsibility of Iraq onto others, but one point remains critical, they have too much to loose if they just pack up and leave. Its not an option, and will only really be used as a vote guarantor.

For one, Iraq will fall into the hands of Iran quite literally as the main parties in power are Iranian allies. Not to mention, it will significantly reduce whatever is left of American influence and dependants in the region.

Also, as the US economy is tied to oil prices (well, to a significant extent), abandoning Iraq will only serve to destaballise oil exports, and increase barrel prices.

So I would say your concern in that area is unnecessary, I could be wrong, and they could actually be that stupid.

Also, whatever happens in Iraq in the longterm, Democracy probably isnt one of them, that is presuming Iraq will remain one country instead of 3. Even then, its not ready or capable of a democracy.

Democracy is also NOT in the interest of western nations, as democracies in the middle east are more likely to result in Islamic leaders, or leaders with national interests above foreign relations.

And looking at America's track record, their ability to actually create a democracy in the Mideast is nill.
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  #14  
Old 2008-01-08, 17:42
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And looking at America's track record, their ability to actually create a democracy in the Mideast is nill.
And they don't do their best about it themselves (e. g. Guantanamo, strange events in the presidential election in Florida), while having forced more democracy on Germany after WWII than they have themselves. (Not that that's bad.) Not a good start, and even worse when trying to create a western democracy in countries which can't cope with it or don't want it. In the end, the invasion of Iraq didn't have the goal to create a democracy at all, noone ever said that. The reasons were:
  • Prevent the danger of the (imaginary) mass destruction weapons.
  • Oil
  • Create the illusion of doing something against terrorism after 9/11 (which, by the definition of a suicide attack, can't be done easily)
Note: If I said something wrong, don't get mad but correct me.
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  #15  
Old 2008-01-09, 00:17
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It's time for a change!
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  #16  
Old 2008-01-09, 01:03
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"The time has changed for cum!"

Please notice that Ron Paul is absent from this "news report". There are two main reasons:
  1. Pure and simple ignoration. He is probably one of the, if not the, most ignored candidate in mainstream media.
  2. The fact that he does not succumb to this mindless media trend of covering everything in one "powerful" word.
And when he indeed use the word change, it actually means change. When compared to the other candidates use of this word, Ron Paul's usage would have to be replaced with 'revolution'. So profound is the difference in meaning.

It's not time for a change. It's time for a revolution.
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  #17  
Old 2008-01-09, 19:40
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It's not time for a change. It's time for a revolution.
That may be true, but it's still the USA which are highly conservative whatever they claim, so I'd prefer to stay realistic.
Is Paul Republican or Democrat?
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  #18  
Old 2008-01-09, 20:11
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Quote:
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Is Paul Republican or Democrat?
Republican... BUT, considering his views on things, I'd say his an independent...

Quote:
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
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  #19  
Old 2008-01-09, 20:33
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I'm write-in balloting Tyrone Biggums.
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  #20  
Old 2008-01-10, 00:14
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Axx: If the dems win there will be a major pull-out of most troops. Of course they are probably exagerating to win votes, but there will be no continuing of the surge, and the recent year's development in the direction of stability will in large be erased.

I think you have a quite cynical view on American foreign policy, and you are purely looking at their self-interest, missing the moral dimension. The moral dimension is important in American politics. And of course democracy is in the interest, definitely in the long-term interest, of the western nations. World peace cannot be acquired until the whole world is democratic.

And Kobold, all people who have had the chance to choose have chosen democracy. There is nothign strange with arabs in that sense, they don't like to be opressed by dictators more than any other people..

On Ron Paul:
I can admire Ron Paul for his genuinity, and the fact that he is a staunch supporter of his principles. I admire his opposition to the disassembling of our civil liberties. I admire his insurgence against special interests and the Republican party establishment.

But...

Seriously, guys - what do you think would happen if Ron Paul became president? His policies might have been viable 200 years ago, but hardly in the world as it is today. A win for Paul would be disastrous for the world as well as the US. For example, he will pull the US out of WTO and NAFTA. He will pull out American troops from every place where it is not in the "national interest" to keep them. What do you think will happen in Iraq if the US pulls out? What happens to South Korea if US leaves it? His isolationist non-interventionist policies might sound "cool" on paper, but in practice they are ridiculous. He has questioned Lincoln's policies in the civil war as well.

And how many people do you guys think would vote for him if there actually was a chance of him winning?

Other than that, he is not a pure libertarian either. He has nationalist leanings, visible for example in the immigration issue. This makes him even creepier, more like some sort of Pat Buchanan type insurgence candidate.

And within his supporter cadres there is the same type of people who supported guys like Buchanan and other extremists. Anti-semites, anti-civil rights people, conspirational theorists. He has even hinted that he isn't sure who was behind 9/11.
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  #21  
Old 2008-01-10, 00:20
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By the way, while the Iowa caucus-goers voted for "change" when they chose Huckabee and Obama, the New Hampshire primary voters voted for "experience" and gave Hillary Clinton a upset victory. John McCain won, and thanks to that his bid for president remains. Also a very big surprise, considering how written off he was last summer. Never count out a Clinton! Or John McCain..
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  #22  
Old 2008-01-10, 00:54
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Btw, I meant to post a link about Ron Paul's racist newsletters in the 90s, but forgot. Here it is:
http://www.cometothinkofit.net/?p=7

Another comment from a libertarian/european neo-liberal
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=di...year=2008#2508
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  #23  
Old 2008-01-10, 04:06
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...and the recent year's development in the direction of stability will in large be erased.
Oh yes, this is inargueably the case. 2007 was only the worst year in Iraq since "victory was declared". So, in a sense, this so called "stabillity" would indeed be erased...

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I think you have a quite cynical view on American foreign policy, and you are purely looking at their self-interest, missing the moral dimension. The moral dimension is important in American politics. And of course democracy is in the interest, definitely in the long-term interest, of the western nations. World peace cannot be acquired until the whole world is democratic.
...and after this, world peace cannot be acquired until the whole world is united under continental unions such as EU, AU, UNASUR and NAU. After which follows a one world union, in nothing but the best interest of "the inhabitants of this planet". Correct?

This use agressive foreign policy to enforce, threaten and impose - what is called democracy - upon every country that will not willingly make the transition or is actively opposing it. What is morally correct in this? Acting like this is purely out of self-interest, if anything.

Do the ends justify the means?
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And Kobold, all people who have had the chance to choose have chosen democracy. There is nothign strange with arabs in that sense, they don't like to be opressed by dictators more than any other people..
Democracy is a word to be taken lightly. The step from democracy to totalitarianism and/or a corrupt society is not far. More than not, countries who have been forced into changing their form of government - by violence, domestic of foreign - into democracy have gotten something entirely else, in the long run. It simply doesn't work that way, no matter how many neocons might tell you so.

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But...

Seriously, guys - what do you think would happen if Ron Paul became president? His policies might have been viable 200 years ago, but hardly in the world as it is today.
And why is that so? Simply because the powers that be have shaped it into seeming very hard to reverse. It is infact completely viable and possible. There is no need to go back "into the caves" in order realise a great deal of his policies.
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A win for Paul would be disastrous for the world as well as the US. For example, he will pull the US out of WTO and NAFTA.
You'd rather have big organizations run by individuals who's main interest lies in furthering their own agenda and controlling the populace through their tight strangle-hold on economy and trade? Surely, that would be more disastrous in the long run, of nothing is done. And let's not even begin talking about the NAFTA Superhighway...
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He will pull out American troops from every place where it is not in the "national interest" to keep them. What do you think will happen in Iraq if the US pulls out?
I guess it's just an coincidence that the places that British troops previously occupied is safer... now that they have left. I guess it's just an coincidence if the same thing would happen if the U.S. pulled out, right? Iraq will never have "democracy" at this rate, anyway. Nor in any other pace. It simply is not possible.
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What happens to South Korea if US leaves it?
Most probably nothing. It is a well known fact that South Korea is about 10 times more powerful than North Korea. There is absolutely no reason to stay in this, or any other, country. Besides, it's not like one U.S. Infantry brigade would prevent North Korea if this was really their intentions.

This arguement that you present, as well as all other arguements for keeping troops stationed in other countries, just doesn't stick.
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His isolationist non-interventionist policies might sound "cool" on paper, but in practice they are ridiculous. He has questioned Lincoln's policies in the civil war as well.
Isolationist? How is trading, talking and actually keeping a balanced relationship with all other countries, without bias or picking favourites, isolationist? He is non-interventionist, yes. There should be no entanglement in other countries internal affairs, but that doesn't mean that one should not talk and trade.

As for the questioning of Lincoln's policies in the civil war - is this a sacrilege? I have seen countless people spinning this in ridiculous directions. Should one not question those who have come before you if it is of a critical nature? I don't see what you mean by this addition.
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And how many people do you guys think would vote for him if there actually was a chance of him winning?
What do you mean by this? Surely, the number of people voting is highly related to the chance of someone winning, is it not? Or perhaps you are reffering to the fact that vote fraud is very common in, especially, the primaries.
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Other than that, he is not a pure libertarian either. He has nationalist leanings, visible for example in the immigration issue.
Of course. He is a true Republican, after all. Not like all those other puppets. And if standing for the constitution means you are a person with nationalist leanings, so be it. Labels are just labels.

And if he indeed do have nationalist leanings in his personal life, which is not evident, does it matter? His emphasize is on smaller government and more value on the individuality of people - freedom. He has a free choice to personally believe what he wants to believe in, but when it comes to enforcing these upon other people, he would have a hard time. At least if he would be able to revert the U.S. to actually use the constitution and the congress properly.
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And within his supporter cadres there is the same type of people who supported guys like Buchanan and other extremists. Anti-semites, anti-civil rights people, conspirational theorists.
Their individual views does not matter. Let them be anti-semites and what not. Read my earlier segment as this is teh same issue.

And I have a really hard time trying to figure out why someone, who is anti-civil rights, would vote for Ron Paul. They would more likely vote for Guiliani. Or any other Republican puppet, for that reason.
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He has even hinted that he isn't sure who was behind 9/11.
I suppose you shrug and laugh at anyone who believe that 9/11 wasn't carried out by some men, across the globe, in a cave. I suppose you laugh at anyone who refuses to blindly submit to the belief that terrorists are out to destroy the U.S. for its "freedom and greatness".

No matter who really is behind 9/11. No matter if someone believe it is an false flag attack by someone within the government, if someone believe it is blowback from their extensive 'inolvement' in the middle-east for more or less a century. Or if you even believe that it was an attack by extraterrestrials. The 9/11 Commission Report needs to be revised. It needs to be much more thoroughly investigated by an unbiased group.

If Ron Paul have indeed hinted on this, which I have not heard or read myself as of yet, it would have good consequences no matter the case.
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Btw, I meant to post a link about Ron Paul's racist newsletters in the 90s, but forgot. Here it is:
http://www.cometothinkofit.net/?p=7
I knew this would surface, sooner or later. It has been used countless times in order to discredit him and make him seem dishonest. Compare this to the vast amount of dirt you can dig up on other cadidates. There is a huge difference.

Also, it is entirely incorrect. Please read this for Ron Pauls statement on this newsletter:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/press-rel...ld-newsletters
It might also be interesting to really read what he has to say about racism, rather than digging up incorrect dirt. Please take a look at: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/racism/
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Last edited by Homeless; 2008-01-10 at 04:21.
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  #24  
Old 2008-01-10, 06:30
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Axx: If the dems win there will be a major pull-out of most troops. Of course they are probably exagerating to win votes, but there will be no continuing of the surge, and the recent year's development in the direction of stability will in large be erased.
I disagree. Bush's government policies are all for gunning them into submission, and the pressure for a pullout will have the effect of actually making someone in new administrations sit down and think up a less agressive aproach to peace. The surge will work for a while, then the Iraqies will adapt, and then war will continue. Not to mention, the surge didnt work, the sunni tribal leaders got sick of Al-Qaeda of iraq and turned against them, BEFORE the surge.

So in short, who the hell wants or needs a surge?

Quote:
I think you have a quite cynical view on American foreign policy, and you are purely looking at their self-interest, missing the moral dimension. The moral dimension is important in American politics. And of course democracy is in the interest, definitely in the long-term interest, of the western nations. World peace cannot be acquired until the whole world is democratic.
I think I have quite a realistic view on American foreign policy. Governments, institutionally, are morally defunct. The moral dimension is only important when it becomes an issue, until then no one in the government cares whether or not lives are lost.

If democracy was in their interest, then they would not have gone to the lengths they have to install and ensure the safety of many of the regions dictatorships. Not to mention, the last time an arab country actually got a democracy (Palestine - election of hamas internationally recognized as being a genuine election), the EU, America, and Russia all sanctioned it for its views (a derivative of the population.

Drop the democracy card, its an old trick to spread the American empire of influence.

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And Kobold, all people who have had the chance to choose have chosen democracy. There is nothign strange with arabs in that sense, they don't like to be opressed by dictators more than any other people..
There is something quite different. Arab nations continue to be highly religous, and that religion does infact dictate a different form of democracy, one not very compatible with secular democracy.
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  #25  
Old 2008-01-10, 09:41
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Aule Aule is offline
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I dont think the world needs to be democratic before we can achive world peace, i just think it needs to be christian! I KNOW, lets just invade middle-eastern countries and "give" them christianity!
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