New storyline discussion

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Lightwing

If this is all true about the inspirations of LBA, I would say it hid them very well. But beyond that, the story is just much more simple and as SGK put it, innocent, like a kid playing with action figures. It is not politically complex and has a greater focus on fantasy adventures. Escape prison, meet your girlfriend, get your tunic, get enough money to go to a temple, pass temple trials, get green magic ball, get red magic ball, find a flute, etc. Also, whatever politics is there does not take it seriously. FunFrock’s dictatorship is kind of played for laughs, with his oversized jaw, his fat green soldiers, and his robot clones that fly in the air when you knock them back. It’s cute and whimsical. What you’re going for sounds a lot more serious and politically complex.

The details I'm fleshing out here may be serious and politically complex, but obviously, I then need to find away to to translate it into the sort of cartoonish goofyness expected of a LBA game.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Battler

I'm not sure that boy would would have a soldier seduced by a woman or a soldier looking for a woman for "friendship and maybe something more", just to give one example. Nor would the boy end up the adventure by implying that the protagonists are having sex. So the game is clearly not just targeted at children, but also at adults, which was the case with most family entertainment back then. It often made jokes and references that only adults would understand, yes, even Disney did.

Disney did because they are an utterly evil corporation owned by some of the most evil men of this world. Please, don't put them in the same level.


* ahem *


Let me remind you of something: The only reason LBA's exist is because the man who created the company, Paul de Senneville created this game studio in tribute to his child daughter, Adeline. Thus, Adeline Software International. And these guys were entrusted with the task of making a videogame for the daughter of this man who was paying it all. They were not "hands free" creating a game as they wanted without any responsability or consequences, they had all the freedom in creativity as long as it was fit for children.

So, no, drop your crazy references of evil things, ultimately this is something created for kids with the innocence adequate for kids. At the same time that Paul de Senneville had his growing daughter, so did Philippe Vachey, Fred Raynal, etc., everyone was having children at that time so everyone was super inspired to create a wonderful game for their own kids too - after all the advent of games with such a possibility of complexity was a completely new thing, a wonderful prospect into actually creating realms of imagination and fantasy and giving life to it. This had no precedent in human history so far. They were absolute pioneers.

As for the soldier looking for a woman for "friendship and maybe something more", even as a young boy I knew that girls and boys had something to do with eachother, but it had no dirtyness, no malice, no actual knowledge of sex. You just fancy the idea of being around this cute girl you have a crush on. This much is pretty acceptable and "in the know" for a small boy, and I didn't think much when I read that line in the game, in fact I found it funny.

As for the ending of LBA1 when Twinsen closes the shades of his window while Zoé is just sitting there at the background of the scene, I don't think that implies sex at all, like, wtf? We know from the begginning of the game that this girl is his girlfriend, we also know that they live together in the same house. So if at the end of the game, we see them together again in the house, and Twinsen closes the shades of the window as a way to tell the audience "the story ends here". How is that implying sex?? I didn't think much of that scene as a boy at all.

So these two examples have nothing concrete to lead us to think that LBAs were made for adults too, that's just far-fetched.

Keep it simple: it is a imaginary made-up universe like a kid would have imagined. Some things are based in the real world, but without any depth of thought or intention to those references, they are taken lightly, it is playful, creative and ludic.

Anything else you see is the way you are seeing specifically and particularly thru the filters of your eyes and your mind. Be wary of that.

[Battler]

- SpaceGuitarist: Then what about LBA 2, where Bersimon has a (nude?) hologram of Tabata, Twinsen can have sex with a cow for clothes, and women scream when you enter their bathroom (in the Hacienda) or room (on Otringal)?

I didn't think much of that scene as a boy at all.

But as an adult, you know exactly what it implies, why they close the window blinds. Also, LBA 2 shows Zoé pregnant.

And 10 year olds? I remember the games being rated 12+ in Europe and T (Teen) in the US. If at that age you still believed babies sprout out of cabbages and are carried by storks, then you're the weird ones.

Edit: I was wrong, it had the KA rating in the US, so one notch lower.

[Lightwing]

I don’t think that subtle hints to suggestive humor makes it not kid friendly. It’s still whimsical and funny. Do what you think is best Battler.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Oh boy, I'm giving up.

The rosa trick is not an actual in game thing, a programmer did it on his own account. It's not part of the story or the game at all, it's an easter egg.

The pretty hologram is just that - an hologram, there is no nudity in it whatsoever. In fact, you don't even know if she'd be wearing clothes or not because its all blue polygons. Yes, depicting women as beautiful things to look at is okay. I also thought so of the girls at school.

Women scream at the hacienda because you did something wrong, but again, no nudity or pervasion, this doesn't make an adult's game at all, don't be ridiculous. It's the same as when a small boy knows he can't go into the girls toilets at school.

Yes, you know it as an adult what it can imply, because adults think of sex all the time. But they are not even in bed or anything. Not even taking clothes off. This is entirely up for an adult's (filthy) imagination only. But, it doesn't mean that the creators were purposefully trying to infiltrate pervasion and sexual imagery into the game, how can you miss my point ???

As for believing in "babies sprout out of cabbages and are carried by storks", no I'm sure none of us believed that, then again, it doesn't mean LBA was a game for adults filled with nudity and perversion, stop derailing my point to inane lengths.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Lightwing

I don’t think that subtle hints to suggestive humor makes it not kid friendly. It’s still whimsical and funny. Do what you think is best Battler.

Yeah.


Battler - the point is very simple: the same way you wouldn't like bloodhound to be infusing "woke" Progressive Left elements into the games because that's what he is into, then in the same way, if you are self-appointing yourself to create some new LBA lore, then also please don't evoke too much east-european geo-politics and war history in it just because those are subjects that you are very much into, see?


Keep it neutral and true to the original LBA spirit, which, as discussed above, is very lighthearted and childlike.

[Polaris]

Good argument.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Good argument.

Good thing we can now agree on things from time to time.

[Lightwing]

So I see a couple of big things that stand out to me. First is the political complexity and emphasis on warfare that I perceive in your outline. The second is character motivation.

Regarding politics and war: When I was 12, I wrote an LBA fanfic about rebels dying in a battle against FF. It was one of my most terrible creations. It lacked the tone of LBA, was too angsty and violent, not to mention poorly written. Later, I created another LBA story that took place hundreds of years in the past, during the golden age of piracy. It was even worse because I started adding new and totally out of place ideas, like fallen angels. It basically became my dumping ground for whatever concepts I liked and was more or less an entirely different IP that I was passing off as LBA. Young writers will often do that. They'll use existing IP as a vehicle for their own ideas, when really they should be creating their own IP to begin with.

LBA is about levitating elephant clones, talking horses, funny rabbit people, aliens that look like sausages, and magic fire balls that make robots flip in the air. Whimsical, light hearted, and down to earth. Yes, it is occasionally threatening with lots of enemies that try to kill you, but its politics is very simple: An evil man controls the world using robots so he can dig into the planet's core and take it's magical powers. There are rebels that try to stop him. No nations, factions, or political groups are mentioned. You've got a guy named FunFrock and you've got "rebels." Everything else is fun fantasy stuff.

Regarding character motivation: In LBA1, your motivation is to escape from prison. Afterwards, you're thrown into a hero's journey when your girlfriend is kidnapped. This has true, personal stake for the character because simply fighting some "bad faction" is kind of boring (thanks 2.21 for your improvement to this story by removing a major character motivation)! Later, you learn that you're a magical chosen person prophesized to save the world. This is icing on the cake. So to summarize: the hero's beloved is taken and he goes on a journey to grow from a scared denizen to a mature, bold warrior.

What is the character journey of Twinsen in The Great Rebellion and how does Twinsen personally relate to all these factions you created? What's at stake for him and why should the player care about it? In LBA2, the creators tried to make me care about some random children that get kidnapped, but I didn't care. I even didn't care that Twinsun might be under attack by some aliens because it failed to connect me to the post-FunFrock world. In LBA1, you feel sorry for all the people and you hate that FF kidnapped your woman. In LBA2, nobody seems to care that you saved the planet from FF and your woman has turned into a nagging manager who gives you endless instructions. There is also no character growth for the hero in LBA2. He stays the same. But at least LBA2 has a bunch of whimsical fantasy stuff before you end up on the dark, grim Zeelich planet.

So I would honestly ask whether you want to make an "LBA" game or whether you want to make something else. Maybe your outline will work just fine as an LBA-type story and I just need to see its execution. Perhaps I'm being overly negative. Like I said, do what you think is best.

[Battler]

- SpaceGuitarist: The thing is, I understand your point. But with all of this, I'm trying to come up with a plot that explains exactly what Lightwing raised below:

In LBA2, nobody seems to care that you saved the planet from FF and your woman has turned into a nagging manager who gives you endless instructions.

.
Why did things turn out this way? This is the question I started developing this project with - why did the public perception of Twinsen's heroism fade so much? Everyone reveres Bersimon and Ker'a'ooc for example, while Twinsen is bossed around by Zoé, treated like crap by the clerk of Mrs. Bloop's museum, he's even charged entrance to Temple Park which is supposed to commemorate him and his retrieval of the Book of Bù. And important places like the Citadel, instead of being well-preserved historical sites where people to go to remember the past, are just a bunch of ruins that noone cares about and are used by the cow as a pasture.

But meanwhile, noone has forgotten Sendell and even small children are taught an ode to her in kindergarten.

And ultimately, where has all the technology gone? Aside from what little is available from Baldino, that one car, and the ferry, it seems the rest of Twinsunian technology has completely disappeared. The planet seems to rely exclusively on magic for everything, to the point that it has begun to screw things up - Bersimon's storm has engulfed the entire planet (as the Esmers say it has prevented them from landing) (which raises the question then, why is Desert Island still a desert after that storm). This why Twinsun can't defend itself when the Esmers fully invade it in Twinsen's absence and impose martial law over the entire planet.

What's at stake for him and why should the player care about it?

His reputation. If he sides with the wrong faction, his reputation would sink as he gets viewed as a traitor.

Though, the original story had (and I want to preserve this) the revelation that Tabata is in facth is sister, so that would give him another personal stake - if he picks the wrong side, he also loses his sister. It could even be used to create an internal dilemma situation - we know Tabata is a wizard, and the wizards could be given a code that forbids them from interacting with whomever opposes them, so he's then torn for most of the game between his reputation (as he believes the socialists are on the right side of history) and his sister (as she's aligned with the Wizards and has to shun him if he opposes them), but he is in the end brought to the Wizards' side with some manipulation, and his sister being on that side would then explain why he was so easily manipulated by them.

Though of course, the game can't call them socialists, much like it's not calling FunFrock and his supporters Nazi's or fascists. So a new, fantasy name for them has to be invented. Could even simply reference them by their leaders - Nizeda (who is then revealed to be Mies van der Rooh) and Chevay.

And rather than Christian capitalism vs. atheist socialism that was the conflict in the real-life cold war, here, it could be simply a conflict between those who believe all of FunFrock's technology is bad and want Twinsun to return to solely relying on Sendell's magic and those who think the technology per se, if in the hands of the people, is good, and it is just FunFrock's regime that was bad.

Also, to add to it, the latter faction could also be claiming that in the end of LBA 1, Twinsen may have only defeated a clone of FunFrock and the real deal may be hiding somewhere, waiting to return and cause more havoc while the former say that there is no way that The Heir of Sendell could have made that kind of blunder or been deceived that easily, so FunFrock must be gone for good. This could even be what ultimately tricks Twinsen to join their side as they end up seeming to him to be more pro-him than the faction he supported up to that point.

This would also add weight to the moment in LBA 2 where Dark Monk reveals himself to be Dr. FunFrock, as in that moment then, Twinsen would know he had been deceived twice - once by Dr. FunFrock himself as he had defeated a clone thinking it's the real deal, and once by Nizeda who assured him Dr. FunFrock was gone for good. It would also add weight to the plight of the wizards in LBA 2 and even of the children, as even they would realize that the ones they had dismissed as charlatans and conspiracy theorists, were in fact right - Twinsen had only defeated a clone and the real Dr. FunFrock was still alive and well.

This would then open the possibility of the same happening at the end of LBA 2 as well (Twinsen only defeating a clone) and would in fact put the planned return of Dr. FunFrock in LBA 3 on even more solid ground.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Great points, Lightwing. I don't think there's anything I could add that you haven't tapped into. What you said sums up what is needed for a good story.




Battler, well, I'm still unsure about some parts of that story (politics and factions). I understand that is the route you chose in how to fill those gaps, but it might not work as smoothly in everyone's heads. But that's ok. I don't mean to quarrel here or change your story if you like it as is. It's your project after all. I think all that me and Lightwing wanted to do was to give you some heads up on common traps any of us humans tend to fall for, and how to avoid them to better tailor your story to all LBA audiences. Just some advice meant to help you tone down certain aspects while looking for better alternatives that would please any LBA fan of all ages.


Good luck. ^.^

[Battler]

- SpaceGuitarist: Well, LBA 1 had at least three factions (FunFrock, the rebels, and the Sendell-believing political prisoners), though two of them were on the same side really (ie. against FunFrock).

LBA 1 was FunFrock vs. against FunFrock. My LBA "midquel" would have Nizeda vs. against Nizeda, just with the plot twist of Twinsen changing sides at the end. So Nizeda would be a villain but not absolute evil, much like Chevay would not be absolute good. That's due to influence from Japanese stuff where there is usually no absolute good, nor absolute evil. I would say LBA 2 played that with the Zeelichians, most of whom are Twinsen's enemies until Dark Monk reveals himself as FunFrock and they realize they have been duped.

The cartoonishness can easily be kept with this. And I absoutely agree with Lightwing's point that there has to be a personal stake for the protagonist in addition to a greater goal, LBA 2 did sorely lack in that department.

Despite any disagreements we may have, I'm actually thankful for the feedback you two have given me. It has in fact made me realize I had over-complicated everything needlessly, hence why I have now greatly simplified everything.

Also, factions can be done with cartoonish fantasy, see the adventures of Gulliver, for example, where he, for example, sees the conflict between the little and big endians in Lilliput, where they argue over which end of an egg should be eaten first.

But it has to be something simple that even a child can understand.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Battler

- made me realize I had over-complicated everything needlessly, hence why I have now greatly simplified everything. (...) it has to be something simple that even a child can understand.

There you go, boy.

[Lightwing]

I've got an idea. Your project is called "The Great Rebellion," right? What rebellion do we know about in the LBA series that would make your game related to cannon? How about the one led by the fighters at Rebel Island?

Did you notice how when Twinsen and Zoe land on Citadel Island at the end of LBA1 and they have a STATUE and a celebration already prepared? Sure, part of it is just whimsical artistic creativity of the story. However, what if there's a more plausible explanation and while Twinsen is in the Northern Hemisphere destroying FunFrock's facilities, the Rebels take over the Southern Hemisphere. Then it's all ready by the time Twinsen defeats the dictator.

What if your project is about how the Rebels take on FunFrock's 2nd in command and bring peace to the Southern Hemisphere while Twinsen is up in the north? Imagine a finale in which there is a siege by the Rebels on a heavily fortified Principal Island HQ??

It's cannon. You reuse almost all LBA1 assets, making the achievement of this project much more realistic. It might make a lot more people interested to play the other events of the conflict they never got to experience.

[Battler]

- Lightinwg: But the project is set between LBA 1 and LBA 2. Well, its original iteration was set after LBA 2, but I then changed my mind and first wanted it to set immediately before LBA 1, but then to avoid clashing with the LBA Prequel (at the time, it was not yet decided if it was to be an immediate or distant prequel), I then changed the setting to between LBA 1 and LBA 2. Also, I still have all of the past grids done for this project, they're all still usable. We even created Port Ludo in its original military settlement version as envisioned by me.

[Polaris]

I made 2 or 3 small grids, do you have those as well ? :3

[Battler]

Yes, I do.

In fact, here's the entire backup of the project's old SVN repository: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...6974/trunk.rar .

[Polaris]

Oh cool ! You have quite a bit of stuff in there... Custom brick libraries ? :O

The one's I made actually don't look too bad. Nowadays, I'd add more shadow to it, but those were inconsistent in the game as well though...

[Battler]

- Polaris: Yeah, the creativity back then went beyond LBA 1's included assets could provided, so we had to customize stuff.