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  #76  
Old 2006-08-14, 20:26
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Rex_Hollywood Rex_Hollywood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aule View Post
Well, it still was somebodys house that was bombed, does it matter who mourns the house, its still destruction of civilian property, it seems you Israelis dont give a damn about the arabs, by the way you speak about them, and by the way some people i know with Israeli origin speaks about them. You invade a country and its a big deal that someone launches home made rockets on yours, isnt that the way of war, or should they be the only ones getting bombed or getting missiles fired at them. Israel is punnishing the lebanese for what Hizbollah does.

So im a spoiled brat because im from europe, now that is prejudice, Sweden has chosen a neutral possition since about 200 years back, before that we had wars all the time, its just that most of us europeans has learned that war isnt the solution of every problem.
About your first part you're just being a nitpick, obviously if someone sees that picture he thinks its her house.
Propeganda doesn't have to be lies, it can be also fooling people's minds with logic tricks.

You are a spoiled brat because you call my side of the war here whining, like only Lebanese have a right to cry about losing all track of a normal lifestyle, while you yourself have no clue what it means even to accept the possibility you might get hit from a rocket any moment, and you can't go anywhere without your family being all histerical and calling you a million times - let alone actually having rockets penetrate your life's space of feeling like you've nearly been killed but not because someone moved the launcher a degree to the left or the driver was driving a 1km/h faster. You also don't know what it's like not to be able to have a proper night's sleep at your bed because a siren howls across the entire city many times throughout a single hour.

It's not prejudice, it's statistics.

Are you saying that Israel doesn't know peaceful ways? I suppose you should go revise your material, because trying to hold the rage inside when you hear more soldiers have been kidnapped and being mocked because you're just "pussies" according to the Hezbollah - well that takes you nowhere.
War is the solution at times.
Thinking otherwise is just either innocence or arrogance.
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  #77  
Old 2006-08-14, 20:40
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War should be a solution, but it almost never is.

For example, what the fuck are we getting out of this war that's solving anything?
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  #78  
Old 2006-08-14, 21:36
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Nothing, because it was stopped by international pressure.

If it did continue, many things could have happened like:
1) Israel annihilating the Hezbollah or at least neutralizing it for a long time = yay for Israel
2) Other arab countries joining the war, at some point Iran drops an nuclear bomb after everybody seems to have lost interest about that subject = yay for islam
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  #79  
Old 2006-08-14, 22:36
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Axx, I really don't understand how can you say the Hizballah is not targetting civilians, 100+ rockets per day? Oh I'm sorry, Naseralla SAID he aims at soldiers mainly, you should listen. The ONLY reason the majority of victims are soldiers is because the civilians were in shelters.

And you know what, your stats really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the mere fact that Hizballah would kill every SINGLE jew who is currently in the state of Israel without hesitation only if it could. Israel would never enter Lebanon unless Hizballah attacked.

Aule - "Israel is punnishing the lebanese for what Hizbollah does".
Lebanon, as a country, has responsbility for what happens in its land. If they let a terrorist group act from their lands they will end up in the cross fire. Now notice that Israel could use means much more serious against Lebanon such as cutting the electricty etc, but we understand the situation where as Lebanon is weak and did not control it's southern part, we fought mainly there and the targets were Hizballah.
You can't put Lebanon here as the victim, they have responsbility for their lands. But if they are victimes of anyone - it is Hizballah's actions. Not only it acted from Lebanon they also hide between it's civilians. Axx said, "well thats how gurilla fight", right, but thats what happens you fight gurilla back, civilians get hurt.

Also, Aule, tell me what would you expect Israel to do after the attack of Hizballah? Yes we could simply trade prisoners. But you can't be naive, you have to understand that this kind of action had to be taken, or don't you? And if you do understand, what did we do wrong? How can we attack Hizballah without hurting civilians if they hide in their homes?

"I am like Hamas in the sense that Israel to me is an illegal state that must intime be retaken, and its inhabitants sent back to wherever the hell they came from,"

Well Axx, the root of the problem is people like you who can't accept a mere fact - Israel has every right to exist. Not only that you got your history wrong, lets assume you are correct, THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.
It is people like you who sometimes make me wonder why would we make agreements with you, who calims we have no right to exist and has to be sent back to whereever we came from - why would we? why won't we throw you out of here? simply as a defensive act?
The only thing that makes me support a two state solution is my belief the majority are more moderate, and are less fanatics.
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Last edited by Bomba!; 2006-08-14 at 22:53.
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  #80  
Old 2006-08-15, 01:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Purposefully misinformed is more like it.

But that's besides the point. The Israelis did live there continuously since Biblical times, and the Arabs could have chosen to live peacefully with the Jews had they so wished. They didn't. The Israelis did not start the 1948, lest of all with the Palestinians. Rather, it was five or so Arab nations that chose to war on Israel. And take a pick - feel free to list the numerous empires that displaced the Jews from their land.
Then saddam had the right to invade kuwait then, since it belonged to the Iraqis some 2000 years ago, and holland should invade Belgium since they only have been there since 1836. The Arab nations had been harrased and colonialised since long ago and then the western world decides to give muslim lands to another people, i can understand why they were pissed off.

QUOTE=Double-J;283259]Hmm...the Germans decided to start a World War. They were punished. Duh?

I mean, sure, it contributed to the rise of Hitler, no doubt. But please - you've basically spun the blame of World War II from a genocidal maniac to the Allied powers.

Decide what's best for them? Oh, you mean like the Soviets did?[/QUOTE]

Um... every democratic nation has a National socialist party, even Japan, but the country need to be in alot of shit to make them get elected, as with Hamas. Yes, like every dictatorship does, but instead of stalin, you have the US state.

Last edited by Aule; 2006-08-15 at 01:28.
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  #81  
Old 2006-08-15, 01:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomba! View Post
Aule - "Israel is punnishing the lebanese for what Hizbollah does".
Lebanon, as a country, has responsbility for what happens in its land. If they let a terrorist group act from their lands they will end up in the cross fire. Now notice that Israel could use means much more serious against Lebanon such as cutting the electricty etc, but we understand the situation where as Lebanon is weak and did not control it's southern part, we fought mainly there and the targets were Hizballah.
You can't put Lebanon here as the victim, they have responsbility for their lands. But if they are victimes of anyone - it is Hizballah's actions. Not only it acted from Lebanon they also hide between it's civilians. Axx said, "well thats how gurilla fight", right, but thats what happens you fight gurilla back, civilians get hurt.
I should go kidnap a norwiegan guy then, so there will be a war vs Norway. And ofcourse, we should invade Israel.
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  #82  
Old 2006-08-15, 04:26
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Originally Posted by Aule View Post
Then saddam had the right to invade kuwait then, since it belonged to the Iraqis some 2000 years ago, and holland should invade Belgium since they only have been there since 1836. The Arab nations had been harrased and colonialised since long ago and then the western world decides to give muslim lands to another people, i can understand why they were pissed off.
Except in the case of Israel, it was their holy land - in the other instances you've mentioned, was their any religious attachment? Also, where else should they put them? Africa (as was tossed about?) Why not give them back their holy sites? And once more, it wasn't taken from Muslims and given to Jews - it was a multiracial state, for muslims, jews, etc. The holy sites to be shared amongst them, living in peace.

Please, the Arab nations have been harassed? Safavid empire much? Even then, 1948 Arab-Israel war? 5+ muslim nations against Israel?

Here's a statistic - 500 million Arabs to 5 million Jews.

Kind of puts things into perspective, no? That's what you've got. So please, stop crying to me about 5 million Jews when they're vastly outnumbered, yet made into the scapegoat for problems in the entire region.
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  #83  
Old 2006-08-15, 04:31
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Originally Posted by Aule View Post
I should go kidnap a norwiegan guy then, so there will be a war vs Norway. And ofcourse, we should invade Israel.
1.) Unfairly, you've turned the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier into an isolated incident, despite the fact that you know perfectly well Hezbollah et al have been targeting and murdering Israeli civilians for years without any serious reprisals.

2.) No one denies the existence of Jewish terrorist groups like the Irgun. But hey - again - 500 million Arabs, 5 million Jews. Bit lopsided, no? The land wasn't even the issue - their goal has been to push the Jews to the sea and eradicate them. Period. This wasn't the Palestinians (initially) - this was Egypt, Iraq, Syria, et al, against the fledgling Jewish state. The Palestinians left to avoid the fighting between these nations. Maybe they should bitch at those Arab countries for contributing to their loss of land?
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  #84  
Old 2006-08-15, 04:41
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  #85  
Old 2006-08-15, 09:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aule View Post
I should go kidnap a norwiegan guy then, so there will be a war vs Norway. And ofcourse, we should invade Israel.
Why are you being so naive? This is not the same at all.
Hizballah are a terrorist organization, which aims at killing us, and sits on the borders. You can't negotiate with terrorists, if you exchange prisoners they'll simply kidnap more. Hence, it is not the first time they kidnap a soldier, last time we did not respond.(This kidnap, also 8 soldiers were killed btw)
So stop giving idiotic examples of different situations.
Israel wanted Lebanon's army to go south for quite some time now, they refused and did not take responsibility of that issue.
I don't know how deep Israel's response should have been, if Beriut was justified etc etc, but certainly I can see Israel need of response to Hizabllah's terrorists attacks, not simply to kill men the other side for vengence, but to kick Hizballah from the borders.

"The only reason Israel didnt kick out the palestineans is because it would have spelt the end of Israel far sooner. The majority, vast majority of palestieneans do not believe israel has a right to exist. To do so would be stupid anyway."
Fine then - if using your rational then Israel is simply constantly defending herself from hostiles who wants to takeover, you have no right to cry that your people are in bad shape or that Israel not giving them rights etc, again, using your logic, because simply, why would it?
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Last edited by Bomba!; 2006-08-15 at 09:10.
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  #86  
Old 2006-08-15, 09:50
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Schnitzel-Man
Please be more specific. I hate clicking links, I know my history. If you want to argue any specific points, then feel free.
Well, you could start by reading the parts about the first phase of the war.

You actually believe that Jewish forces moved from village to village, murdering and raping?
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  #87  
Old 2006-08-15, 11:49
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Bullshit, Hezbollah is resistance, not brutal savages. Also, when their site was still up they stated it as never being there aim. Thats just a load of israeli propoganda to make them seem like madmen.

Actually it's in hizbollah's propaganda where they're singing "death to israel". pretty straightforward i must say.
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  #88  
Old 2006-08-15, 12:44
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Not 100% the same, but here in Belgium the fans of one of the two biggest football teams sing a song with this line "a fan of Anderlecht with a bullet in his head".

I'm not saying they have a right to sing it, but a barrel of salt might be needed sometimes...
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  #89  
Old 2006-08-15, 14:04
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The ancient history of the middle east.

In ancient times, semites occupied the terrains of the middle east (without Egipt), they where the main ethnic element wich, in waves appeared in many historical times, and had a great influence on the history of the region. The biggest semite empires where the Akadian empire, founded by Sargon the Great (in 2350 bc). In the time when the Akadians bloomed the semite Akadian language was the "Lingua franca" of the middle east, excluding Egipt.

After the fall of the Akadian empire and the last state of the Sumerians (About the year 2000 bc they mixed with the semite ethnic group, their biggest country was the Sumer in mezopotamia, around the IV centrury bc.), Semites appeared again as the Amorytes, who occupied the Mezopotamia and other adjacent regions, creating strong "administrations" (for instance the empire of Shamshi-Adad I (who ruled in the years 1813-1781 bc) in Asyria, and Hammurabis (ruled in 1728-1686 bc) in Babilon.

One of the biggest civilizations also known in the region is the kingdon of Izrael (wich existed from around XVI century bc, with small intervals when other semite tribes, and the greeks ruled the area until 66 bc. when they where concquered by the Romans) , wich used the ancient biblical hebrew language.

Fenicia was a country on the west bank of the mediterranean sea, the terrains of present day Liban, west Syria and northern Izrael where part of this country. The language of the Fenicians was closely related to the Hebrew language. Nowadays we think the Fenicians are the inventors of the concept of money.

The other Semite wave, the Arameians (from 2000 bc. they lived west of Mezopotamia and built cities on the terrain of modern day Syria, the strongest one of them was the Aram kingdom, around 1000 bc. with it's capitol in modern day Damascus(then called Lbe)), where the ones next to unite the middle east, their language, the Arameian language spread all over the region, and survived to our times in a very non common form. In the VII centruty bc. the Arameian cities in Syria where conquered by the Asyrians, whose kings relocated and spread the Arameians throughout all of middle east.

From the VII century ad. we note the expansion of the Arabs (also a semite group, but with little significance in the previous times) from the south-east and east, who had many in common with the Persians (The modern day Iran), along with the Arab expansion came the Arab language.


If anyone disagrees with the history, his education is simply bad, period.

And Axx, the Bible and it's old testament isn't only a religious book, the old testament is the oldest known historical book depicting the history of the middle east and it's liability as a historical source has been prooven many times by archeologists: Muslim, Jew, Christian and atheist alike.
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  #90  
Old 2006-08-15, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Except in the case of Israel, it was their holy land - in the other instances you've mentioned, was their any religious attachment? Also, where else should they put them? Africa (as was tossed about?) Why not give them back their holy sites? And once more, it wasn't taken from Muslims and given to Jews - it was a multiracial state, for muslims, jews, etc. The holy sites to be shared amongst them, living in peace.

Please, the Arab nations have been harassed? Safavid empire much? Even then, 1948 Arab-Israel war? 5+ muslim nations against Israel?

Here's a statistic - 500 million Arabs to 5 million Jews.

Kind of puts things into perspective, no? That's what you've got. So please, stop crying to me about 5 million Jews when they're vastly outnumbered, yet made into the scapegoat for problems in the entire region.
Didnt we try to take back the holy land like what? 6 times, but that bloody Saladin and his terrorists fought us back. You cant say, hey we owned that land back then, and we shall own it now, ever by occupying 3 arab nations. Then sweden should own Norway, Finland, parts of denmark, parts of germany, estonia and so on. Every time you create a coutry where there wasent one before, troubble wil arise, look at liberia as an example.
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  #91  
Old 2006-08-15, 16:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aule View Post
Every time you create a coutry where there wasent one before, troubble wil arise
Well, what about Palestine then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axx View Post


JJ- Jews, not israelies have lived. However, they were for 1)Arab jews 2) small in number. The vast majority of current day israelies have no connection to the land, their skin color is my witness. Arab nations did choose to intervene, but the war had already started, by the Israeli terrorist organisations. There was war even when the british mandate was still there.
War by both Jewish and Islamic fighters. Again, no one denies this fact.

And again, you say to leave religion out of it, but it is the central issue that ties Jews to the land. It's they holy land. And the state of Israel was designed as a multiracial state, since it contained sites sacred to both Islam and Israel.

Quote:
Jews should have had a historical debt for the hundreds of times we saved them from the clutches of the christian empires. However that has not happened.
If you define "peace" as oppression of Jews, then sure, okay.

The Jews should get down on their knees and thank the Muslims for their contributions to Jewish society.

And then, maybe they can suck Heinrich Himmlers cock as well.

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Originally Posted by Axx View Post
Bullshit, hardly any crossborder fire. And almost entirely skirmishes between israeli troops and hezbollah fighters. In almost all documented instance israel flies over beirut passed the sound barrier to horrify civilians. Name the last time an israeli civilian was killed by hezbollah fire before the current conflict.
Bullshit yourself.

I guess there are no daily suicide attacks, no bombings, no rocket fire into Israel. Must be more Jewish propoganda. I bet that soldier doesn't even exist.

Maybe those Lebonese prisoners they bitch about it Israel don't exist either...by that logic.

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Originally Posted by Axx View Post
Bullshit, Hezbollah is resistance, not brutal savages. Also, when their site was still up they stated it as never being there aim. Thats just a load of israeli propoganda to make them seem like madmen.


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Originally Posted by Axx View Post

Here's a statistic - 500 million Arabs to 5 million Jews.
Correction, 200 million arabs. 5 million jews, plus 300 million american backers.
Again, I love it. You and your fellows must really underestimate the number of bullshit liberals in my country.

But hey, that's okay - we'll make you a deal. You leave Israel alone, the Palestinians can have California.
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  #92  
Old 2006-08-15, 18:38
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There has not been any flaming yet, but there are aggressive tendencies in the debate. Please be a bit more gentle, guys.
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  #93  
Old 2006-08-15, 18:50
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Yes, I can see you posting sources everywhere...
Oh looky, every post of yours has sources!
It's called common knowledge, go read a history book, or look in the wikipedia.

In what I said about the Bible, put religions aside, when you syphon the religious parts out you have a reliable historical account, just as the Mahabharata talks about certain historical facts, and just as the Koran talks about historical facts, and all three of them are reliable historical sources, of course you have to syphon the religious bits. I acknowledge what other religions say about the world and it's history, becouse the truth always lies somewhere between the lines, if you do not acknowledge the historical value of documents that reach tousands of years, and have been proven with research in the field of archeology, then your simply ignorant and uneducated.

Oh, and the first part means, that your talk about Israels existance in the region as a breief "episode" is just plain stupid! The Arab expansion into ths region started around the year 600, after the death of Mahomet, the Arab culture under the reign of the Kalifs, as I remember thrived, no one with any knowledge denies that, they took many from the Greeks, and invented a lot of themselves, medicine, astronomy, mathematics, in fact the numbers we use now are Arab numbers right? But you have to take into account that, this is about a 1000-1300 years of history, whereas the Semites whose descandants are the Jews have about 3000 of written and who knows how many more unwritten years of history.

Those terrains belong to both cultures, becouse both come from the same origin, but you have to take into account some other facts, becouse talking about Israel as a country with a brief and short history is just stupid and ridicullus.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-08-15 at 18:59.
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  #94  
Old 2006-08-15, 19:44
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I wrote some more text, but it's really pointless and I don't want to get deeper in this conversation, just please tell me where do I use the Bible as my reference? Me saying about the Bible was a reference to your previous posts, hence the new paragraph. All other information are historical facts unrelated to the Bible, or any other religious document. And as I'm not a very much religious person, making this a clash of religions is kind of pointless. Israelis are semites, they changed of course, just like the Arabs have changed over time, the skin colour is really irrelavant in this case.
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  #95  
Old 2006-08-15, 22:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aule View Post
Um, 2 houses were destroyed, period, who mourns it isnt important, maybe there wes none left to mourn their house
Sorry,my fault, replied without checking the links, this was what I was talking about:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...try=22024&only

Also, the end of this artical:
http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/
(see, mourning woman, hence my post)

oh, and who mourns certainly IS important.
good god...
placeing any prop's, or people, for ANY photo in a news in unacceptable.
Its not about makeing good photos, its about SHOWING THE TRUTH.
You dont need to exadurate. You dont need to make it look dramatic, it just needs to be a clear, well shot picture showing what is actualy there.

This isnt about war, this is about fundimentaly and horribly problems with a very huge news agency.
We need to trust these people, they need to sort out their staff and checking procedures pronto.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2006-08-15 at 22:53.
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