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  #51  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:04
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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1. A lifetime in a small prison can also be worse than death.
2. "God" is just religious nonsense. Weather you believe in god or not, it should stay personal and not get extended to enforcing it on others (like saying "Only God is allowed to decide who deserves to die, so that's why death penalty is wrong").
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  #52  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
And while I would definately say (for the example DJ just gave) that guy would deserve to die, what if you're wrong, and he didn't do it?
From my experience with criminal justice classes and just looking at examples, most convictions with the death penalty today are validated with some sort of DNA evidence, a jury would virtually never convict and sentence a death penalty for circumstantial or limited evidence.

And also, keep in mind that the entire U.S. does not have the death penalty. Like many other issues throughout her history, it has been up to the state's individually to determine the legality of the death penalty. In my state, for example, we do not have it. The maximum sentence is life in prison.
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  #53  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:12
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Kitarii Kitarii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
From my experience with criminal justice classes and just looking at examples, most convictions with the death penalty today are validated with some sort of DNA evidence, a jury would virtually never convict and sentence a death penalty for circumstantial or limited evidence.
That's fine, and I'm saying I support it, but there is always a chance for error, and when it's death, you can't undo it and say sorry.

Fishos: I did say I didn't wanna get into it, tbh I don't really know where I stand, but I think that you shouldn't just disregard peoples beliefs so casually as if it is all nonsense.
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  #54  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:18
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I'm not disregarding, these people would agree with me themselves, if they know why they are believing it. It's not to say it isn't true. Only that it doesn't make sense (hence "nonsense"), it's just the sort of belief you choose to hold on to because it helps you have a sensation of meaning and direction.

But ok, we don't have to get into that.
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  #55  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:25
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
That's fine, and I'm saying I support it, but there is always a chance for error, and when it's death, you can't undo it and say sorry.
I understand what you're saying, but that's why we have appellate courts. You can challenge a ruling throughout the court system progressively up to the highest court in the land (Supreme Court) and try to have the verdict overturned.

I'm not saying that mistakes couldn't be made - but with an appeal, the idea that three or four sets of jurors could make that mistake is either horrible and gross incompetence or terrible lawyers.
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  #56  
Old 2007-05-19, 18:11
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Such penalties are barbarism, nothing more, law is not a tool of vengence, and so the penal system isn't one - it's purpose is resocialisation or isolation if the other one fails. If someone accepts theese atrocities and mutilation penalties he is a barbarc mindless beast.

And it's a wide known fact that it's not the penalty itself that scares people away, but the inevitability of the punishment. Besides most murder cases are done in an affect, and therefore no penalty will scare the murdurer away.
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  #57  
Old 2007-05-19, 18:22
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I don't think death penalties are there for vengeance, at least not in western countries. They are there to make sure you consider really really hard if you actually want to commit a crime that might grant you a death penalty.
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  #58  
Old 2007-05-19, 19:23
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"Western countries", CF? The United States is practically the only Western country* in which the death penalty is still made use of. And I completely agree with Jasiek's sentiments here, a society should not seek to punish and make example of someone who has taken another's life by doing the same to that person.

*An ambiguous term, I will concede. But for the sake of simplicity I'll follow Samuel P. Hunnington's classification. However if you disallow certain Baltic states and Papua New Guinea, which many would, I suppose, then it is the only one.
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  #59  
Old 2007-05-19, 19:26
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I have written an essay as an exam in English recently on the topic "explain to an American friend why so many Europeans oppose death penality". When I find it, I can post it here.
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  #60  
Old 2007-05-19, 19:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axx
lbawinowns - its easy to say ~Seriously, every argument that is for death penalty has been proven wrong statistically AND philosophically.~ but its not easy to come up with the statistics. Prove it, show me your statistics.
Agreed. I was really lazy, I honestly agree.

But I compensate it with the arguments and statistics.



Deterrence:

Philosophically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ágnes Heller
Deterrence is the worst, the most fraudulent principle. The death penalty has no deterrent effect because murder is committed for three different reasons or motivations. First, passion. Second, profit. And third, compulsion.

If it's for profit, the people who kill for profit do it very rationally. They are always convinced that they will not be caught.

Second, passion crimes cannot...cannot be deterred. If you hate your husband that much that you kill your husband, no one, no punishment can deter you.

And the worst is, of course, crimes by compulsion. If a sexual criminal kills a child, for example. Unfortunately, these are the kind of criminal, violent acts which cannot be deterred at all because it is a compulsion.
Statistically:

USA any1? Wow, what a bummer...



No Painful Deaths:

Warning, this might shock you. Yea, that's true, the Nazi idea Hitler's physician made up is painful, unbelievable that the Nazis came up with something painful!!! The explanation of to low amount of sleeping chemicals is probably because of the costs.



There is only fair and objective judges:

Philosophically:

Seriously? Why do people convince themselves that the government is only doing good things when it comes to things like this. Well, it's getting clearer when it comes to the statistics. And yes, being doomed to die for 10 years is a big pain, even if you get exonerated before the execution has time to be.

Statistically:

DPIC - Look, what about if those were executed? The philosophy tells us about that the supporter of death penalty also deserves to die if only one innocent is executed, what about if all 124 were executed? 124 people, that surely suggests that at least one innocent have been executed.



Oh well, I very rarely post long posts, but here you go, long post.
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  #61  
Old 2007-05-19, 20:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
1. A lifetime in a small prison can also be worse than death.
is that the point of a prison?
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  #62  
Old 2007-05-19, 20:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Statistically:

USA any1? Wow, what a bummer...
Nice...

I dont know enough about the states, the murder culture, or why the same approach produced opposite effects in the states and saudi.

I guess im more than happy with that law being implemented in Saudi
I do have my concerns regarding innocense, mistakes are made, and its not just with the death penalty, mistakes lead to people dying in hospitals, innocents dying in war, yet that never prevents people from apposing hospitals or certain wars.

Our only concern is when the mistake happens to us, but thats life in my opinion, we can only hope we aint the victim of some stupid judge.

Also, every creation, every invention, every fucking pen has a creator, and the universe is no exception, hence an being all powerfull relative to our selves is logical, and therefore makes sence.

God exists just as much as you do, but hey thats belief aint it? (its more of a question bout "whos god" and "organised religion or not")

And yeah I am more than happy pursuing establishing religous law back home, because wether god exists or not, its a philosophy and a way of life, like secularism is, so i have just as much right to pursue it.
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  #63  
Old 2007-05-19, 20:53
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Btw, I'm not pro-death penalty or anything, I just think that some people who oppose it do so for the wrong reasons. (Israel also doesn't have death penalty, btw)

A bit off-topic, but a lot of Europeans also "oppose war" and think it makes them so righteous. Don't forget that you people live in your comfortable European world because of war. There is not a single country in Europe or in anywhere else in the world that wasn't founded by war and force and lots of ruthless killing.

War is natural. Killing is natural. It's painful, but it's the truth. It's in our nature to fight teeth and nails for our ideals, and it's natural that different people will have conflicting ideals.

Back on topic, when you say "death penalty is barbarian" do actually *know* what are the reasons for death penalty? I find it hard to believe that America has death penalty "for vengeance".
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  #64  
Old 2007-05-19, 21:50
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Quote:
A bit off-topic, but a lot of Europeans also "oppose war" and think it makes them so righteous. Don't forget that you people live in your comfortable European world because of war. There is not a single country in Europe or in anywhere else in the world that wasn't founded by war and force and lots of ruthless killing.
Do you mean that without the war Europe would be more behind than today? Or how do you figure?

Oh, and don't worry about being off-topic, this thread has been out of track for a since first reply
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  #65  
Old 2007-05-19, 21:53
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I meant that "without war" is a fantasy... It's not how Homo Sapience is programmed to work

If your ancestors wouldn't fight in wars you couldn't have such a comfortable life today.
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  #66  
Old 2007-05-20, 00:29
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Well, after reading that table I have developed a small theory why in the US the murder rate is lower in the states without the death penalty: it's becouse the two figures are linked together with overall brutality of the people living there, a place with more violent people will have higher murder rates and a death penalty becouse the "righteous" ones are also more violent due to maybe how they where raised. But that's just thinking - no real proof.

And yes fishos, I think it's only becouse of vengance, people seek some sort of retribution, thinking it will make them feel better if the culprit will meet the same fate. And personally I don't know how would I feel about that, but I guess I would focus more on mourning the person and having comfort that the maniac is in custody for the rest of his life working for his own food and living space, then on vengence.


Axx, maybe it is merely becouse that the crime detection rate is low(just asking, how good it is?)? Or that maybe some cases are never called in? Also what would be the poor-rich ratio in Saudi Arabia? I think it also might have an effect. And seriously, cutting off an arm for plain thievery? That's plain madness, most of the acts of thievery will be done becouse of poverty, when you mutilate that man you most likely deprave him of the way of finding a decent job in life, so he will have to steal again... That sounds a lot like caring only for the rich and wealthy, like their well being was more important to those who are poor and in need of help.

And you know, a mans freedom ends, where another mans freedom starts, and I would apply that to tradition and religion, as long as it does not force you to live in any special way(directly, or through social pressure for instance) then it's ok, but the momment it presents you with a certain life style telling you that God will love you more if you pursue it or something, it lacks the wisdom to be of any use, really, just be a good man, seize the day, use every bit of life that God gave you - accept that gift, and be tollerant towards other people as long as they do not hurt anyone through their beliefs - that's all there should be to religion I guess.

But well, I have a rather hmm, rebelious nature, I will not accept any tradition that tells me how to live, I have my own conscience inside. That's why I was never keen on church and religions in any form, becouse in the end,(if there is one) there can be only one God, and if he would grant some sort of salvation to only his worshippers, and not all good people - I don't think I'd ever want to meet him.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2007-05-20 at 00:40.
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  #67  
Old 2007-05-20, 00:47
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Tired, so I didn't read all your post yet Jasiek, but I don't think it's for vengance, I think it's to stop that person killing again, but also to show that if you get caught for murder you get as good as you give.

I'll probably have more in the morning.
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