Opinions about working as a concept ?

[Polaris]

(I suck at naming threads)
So last friday I met one of my friends (who is a girl) and I talked about something I discovered a little time ago about her.
Her grandfather, (her grandmother until recently), her mother and herself all live under the same roof with none of them working. They get by with money the grandfather gets from renting ~4 house...
This is like the definition of rich for me, having a lot of money isn't something interesting, as there'll always be things you can't afford. Being rich means being able to live without working.
So when I stated to her how awesome her state of life is due to that, she and her friends looked at me like I was crazy, stating things like you don't only work in order to live, but also to improve yourself. Having a boss and co-workers puts you in a new situation.

I can see some sense in that, but I was surprised that among the four people having this conversation, I was the only one having my opinion...

Namely that working is something you never do by choice, but because you have to if you want to eat.
...
Is this such an extreme/uncommon point of view ? What's yours ?

I mean, if I had a stable monthly income without me having to work, I'd grab a backpack and a credit card, and walk all the way to Japan, and would visit every one of you on the way and back ...

[Bot13]

I've had quite some difficulties (and still have) with the concept of working a dayjob.
The opposite is true for having a career, some direction to aim for in life and developing a skillset. I've known since a very young age what I wanted to be doing in life, I'm doing that now and expect to be doing it for the bigger part of my life.
But a dayjob, having to forcefully drag your ass to your workplace because NO job is NOT an option, feels like wearing shackles. You get to pick your own type of shackles, but they're shackles nonetheless.
I feel like there is a big group of people actively trying to keep this system in place because of the investment they had to make, work wise. It feels unfair for them to in any way aim for a change in the "rules" that would allow for the newer generation to work less or not at all. Why would they see a whole generation with a 100% of their time available for their spouse or kids, when so often they could not be there because they were stuck at work?
All in all, I'm doing rather well at my job because I work hard for my career and know a little bit about how to "play the game", but the thought of having to continue going to work for most of my remaining life scares me.
There are some good alternative thoughts about societal and economical systems in the Venus Project (also watch Zeitgeist: Moving Forward). Those ideas are centered around human potential a LOT more.

[Darkflame]

In a ideal world work and play are one and the same.
It is fun to learn if its a subject that interests you. Its fun to make stuff, to achieve things.
In that scenario is makes sense to want to work forever - your both contributing to the world, and getting satisfaction from it.

Sadly few people are in that position. Most people work in order to live, and if they are lucky, have enough money left to "play". This play normally takes the form of escapism in some way - either in reality (Hollidays) or in fiction (Cinema etc).
As humans we are infovours - we love discovering new things, places and ideas. If our work doesn't give us it, we look elsewhere. Its part of what makes us who we are.

( err..imagine a quote from the above post here....)
There are some good alternative thoughts about societal and economical systems in the Venus Project (also watch Zeitgeist: Moving Forward).

Glade you mentioned that, I forgot the name of it a few weeks back.
Come to think of it, I think basically what I sad about work and play is more or less from that :P

[ChaosFish]

"Zeightgeist: Moving Forward" and the Venus project is also the first thing that came to my mind. The Venus project people are trying to promote a system where every citizen is given a basic salary regardless of anything. I'd like to believe we've achieved the point in history where civilization would be able to function and progress without using poverty as a motivator.

[Neko]

I think it is a lot like Mazlov: Work is for the basic needs of survival. When that is covered, it gets more centered around 'who am i and what do i want to be in life'.

[ChaosFish]

Zeitgeist/Venus (not sure which which) have more than just an abstract ideal. They have a pretty detailed vision. From what I've seen in the movie, they want to make it so a computer program controls the economy and the Earth's resources' usage and distribution. (not an AI, just a straight forward computer program that follows rules set by a guideline set by us humans)

And they also say technology is advanced enough to not need "black workers", for example they say we can easily make machines that would build a house in one day. The work that does need to be done by people will be done by people who want to do it, and there will be plenty of them (in theory).

[Bot13]

That's right Chaosfish.
The fact that people are protesting right now about the advancements in robotics, because they fear losing their jobs, is absolutely crazy when you think about it. Here we are, at the start of a huge technological revolution, which should greatly increase our standard of living. But instead of taking the streets celebrating, people have to worry about being replaced, out of a job, and not able to support themselves and/or their families. How crazy is that?
Maybe it will take another century or so before the system really begins to fall apart by the changes of our new modern world, but like Zeitgeist:MF already explained to us, we will need to move toward a resource based economy asap.
Another beautiful quote from Zeitgeist:MF is (paraphrasing): "Todays capitalist society will be told to future generations as a horror story"

[Darkflame]

Its crazy that "less jobs" is seen as a bad thing - we make it a bad thing due to our economic systems right now.

That said, I do think the idea of getting rid of all unwanted jobs is hugely optimistic. As robotics and AI increases more and more jobs will certainly go, but we are talking decades, maybe centuries - and for the meantime there will be at least some quantity unpleasant jobs.

--

a system where every citizen is given a basic salary regardless of anything.

The idea of paying everyone a flat amount regardless of employment or not is called "Basic Income".
The idea is it provides people the basics to live, and thus replaces almost all benefits. Its simpler and easier to admin rather then the "patch job" support system most civilized countries supply.
People still work, however, and still get paid in addition to their Basic Income.
(thus the old """people on benefits dont want to work because they lose their benefits"" argument wont work).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
and;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_...ound_the_world

Worth looking at, as interesting in the idea has risen enough for it to be being tried out in small schemes.
Switzerland is also having a referendum on it.

Partly I think its more people seeing the status quo cant work as tech continues to let more be made with less people so experiments are needed.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Hey great thread.
I'm glad I found this.
I share of your opinion, polly.

I would still work I think but I'd have far more freedom and resources to invest in precisely what I'd want. Come to think of it, this is how LBAs were made: a guy generously packed with money to heavily invest on a dream even if uncertain of any financial return at all. And how worth it was every cent spent!!

As for the ideas in the above posts, this is a bit like native tribes live: you work as much needed then the full day is free for leisure and enjoying the nature. There's no need for, for instance, someone to constantly build bows or pots to sell: when one is needed it is made and that's it. No consumerism, no pollution, no waste. Food is always fresh, hunted/harvested daily, as much as is necessary. Sure they are primitive, but the same principle can be applied with having technology produce what we need when we need without waste of materials, planned obsolescence or dedicating humans working full time.