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  #1  
Old 2002-02-27, 12:04
Silverfish Silverfish is offline
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Exclamation Atresica, here you go - a dissertion on OBE'S * Others, feel free to read

-Typed in notepad-

Sophistry by Tom Morgan


Point 1 - It is impossible to 'prove' the existence of a miracle.

Alright - let us start with one basic principle. This world, the universe and our lives adhere to certain basic, logical laws. We can believe in these logical laws and conclusions dogmatically, because they can only be right or wrong - there is no middle ground - and our experience and sensibilities assure us that they are 'right'. Thus, we can say, with absolute certainty that the world is round, or that sub-atomic particles exist, or that we breathe oxygen, because all of these assertions can be subjected to various tests which correlate with the conclusions of our experiences.
Not only does that allow us to conclude that our 'knowledge' logical, it also allows us to state that any such knowledge must be 'dogmatic'; we can state it without fear of it being false. This brings us to the thorny, contentious issue of 'miracles'. By definition, miracles are aberrations of nature - events that do not comply with the laws we have learnt through experience. Now, we can RELY on our experiences - as I have dealt with earlier - and if 'miracles' do not comply with our experiences, and since our experiences are the only way of judging the event of a 'miracle', we arrive at a paradoxical conclusion. Experiences should guide our understanding on 'miracles', but since 'miracles' are, by definition, outside of our experience (that is, not complying to logical laws), and we are experiencing a 'miracle' then we must conclude that our 'experiences' are invalid. If we are to do this, then we must abandon experience, and rely on pure FAITH, or disregard the miracle at retain our confidence in reason.
Because of this, it is impossible to accurately 'prove' a miracle, because we must rely on faith, or ignore the 'miracle' all together.

Point 2 - Relation between astral self and real world.

Analogies have been made comparing OBE's to Dreaming. The author is not suggesting that OBE's are dreams, just that they share certain traits. However, in a dream -lucid or not -, we do not leave our bodies. We know this because our dreams are still responsive to external stimuli; we can feel and assimilate pain, sound and other sensations into a dream-state. For example, a sensation of pain could be interpreted as dragon-fire in one's dream. We also know that events in dreams can affect our physical bodies - eg, bedwetting, wet dreams, nightmares - which indicates that the realm of the physical and mental are not inextricably divided. Astral project suggests that almost all connections are severed with the body, but, if we are to use the dream analogy, it seems that our mind is indivisible from our bodies.
Also, the author states that OBE's are 'real' while dreams are not. I disagree. I dream is 'real' -a subjective term - enough to make one scared of an irrational fear. If dreams can seem real, even though, in retrospect, they are entirely false, why can't OBE's.
A secondary problem arises. If we are to sever our connections with our body, where does our mind draw its information from. If, for example, our astral bodies travel in the physical realm, it would suggest the existence of some magical 'ether' or some other undiscovered, unknowable substance that our astral bodies are made of. This would, one fears, be painfully at odds with a scientific view of the world, and again this brings up the question of faith; until someone can present this magical astral substance, there is no concrete evidence.
Very well, then, you say, the astral body actually travels in an astral plane; a construction of the sum total of human consciousness. Such an astral plane would reflect the thoughts and conceptions of the 6 billion inhabitants of the world. Of course, this suggests a separate world, subject to its own laws (a world of the mind) and at first glance, this must seem rather attractive. After all, our mind is a strange and wonderful creation, why should it be bound to physical laws?
As we have already seen, the mind IS, in some ways, bound to the body. However, the idea of a separate 'mind' world raises a number of issues. Firstly, the human mind is constrained by knowledge. Its seems a truism, but we cannot know what we don't know. An astral traveller cannot describe a desert island in teh pacific, or the inside of my home, or the colour of my best friend’s car. Knowledge is accrued by experience, we can only know what we experience. An astral traveller CANNOT experience thing (objects, sights, sounds etc) in the traditional manner, because they are either travelling in a different *mind* world, or they are using different senses. It is also a matter of accounting, most astral travellers only travel to places they have been, seen on TV, pictures etc. I doubt - though I may be proven wrong - if an astral traveller could describe a place they had not physically been to.
Secondly, if the *mind* world exists as a construction of the myriad of human minds, there would be certain areas - Antarctica, certain deserts etc - that would not EXIST because there are no people living in them, and hence, no shared impression of them.
Finally, are an astral body’s experiences the same as those we have in our everyday bodies? Can we use the experiences of an astral traveller - the experiences of the *mind* world - in a real world context. Again, a similar example of this would be using dreams as evidence in a real world situation; 'I dreamt I was a rooster, therefore I am..."

Point 3 - Our bodies.

Our mind is constructed to take in information from five sensory organs; that of taste, smell, sight, hearing and touch. Our mind is hardwired to decode this sort of information - thus, though we cannot see if our eyes are damaged, our brain still has the capacity for sight. Our brain also deals in memory, emotions and the basic human functions - these are controlled sections of the brain stem - and works together as a congruent, complete, whole.
It has been shown that lobotomy - the removal of certain sections of brain - can change our behaviour, or our memory. This suggests to us that the idea of a separate, immortal consciousness in invalid, if it can be altered by changes in the physical makeup of the brain, it suggests that it is inextricably connected to the organ. That is, the MIND -and by mind we mean our conscious self - IS the BRAIN; they are the one and the same.
This not only suggest that the mind cannot exist without the brain - i.e., after death -, but that the mind HAS to inhabit the brain. Now, this assertion limits the ideas of astral projection, without a 'life after death', there can be no lost souls etc.
It also suggests that the mind DOESN'T leave the body - again, the brain is the mind, and unless 1.4 kg of nerve and brain tissue leave you body, I don't see how it can happen. If astral projection is to exist, one must suppose that the mind resides in the body, but that a projection of our 'soul/mind' is made, and we experience events remotely.
However, where do these experiences/senses come from. As mentioned before, the brain (which is the same as the mind) is hardwired to receive information from each of our five senses. If we are 'outside' of our body (though our mind isn't) ho wdo we receive these senses.

*Diagram

Awake:
Eye -> Brain (tissue) -> Mind (soul)

Sleeping, OBE's: Eyes shut, no signal for brain to interpret. So:
Memory -> Mind

*/Diagram

The connections from the eye, to the brain, to the mind still exist, but our eyes are closed. Any information we receive, must, then, come from our own mind, be figments of imagination, or belief conjured up by a fevered mentality. OBE'S, are, in essence, dreams.

Point 4 - Conclusion.

It is my strong belief that OBE'S are nothing more than dreams. However, since there is no concrete proof for them, their existence is a simple matter of faith. I can say no more...
If an astral projector wants to give proof of its existence – as a true, practicable science – then tell me what Britney Spears looks like in the shower... Tell me what King Island looks like; tell me what colour my grandfather’s medication is. Until then, I’ll be a bastard sceptic.

Part 5 - More to come on telepathy, clairvoyance etc...

Tom Morgan, the evil Sceptic...
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  #2  
Old 2002-02-27, 12:28
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/me applauses

though point one was kinda obvious you know
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  #3  
Old 2002-02-27, 13:55
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-Also, Typed in notepad-

No, point one is against many Quantom views of the would.

Unless something is obsevered it is in a "Quantom Waveform".
(it, it exists in all possible forms at once).
-
Ie, If a binary code had quantom properties, a bit could be 1 , 0
or both at once .
It is important that this "superposition" is not like a "2", it does not have any properties the other two dosn't.
-
Put simply, the quantom world is not black and white.
Things arn't right or wrong, True or False.
Everything only exists as a probability till obsevered (and only during obsevation).
==
The rest of the argument against proving mircales is correct, but mainly verbal.
Its like saying "The universe isn't expanding, because anything it expands into is also the universe"
Its correct, but it is only proving the definition wrong.
A mircales is something that goes against the collective accepted view of the possible. It does not go against the possible, of course, because then it couldn't happen.
So a Mircale's can be proved quite easily.
But after they are proved, then that thing is no longer really a "mircale" anymore.
========
========
I have always believed that dreams are another layer of reality.
I don't believe in a absolute real world.
Like you can "wake up" from a dream, I believe we make wake up from this world.
OBE I believe could be too things.
They could be when the sentients is traveling somewhere else (metaphoricaly "Waking up" to a "higher" level of reality)
Or they could be simply traveling though the minds of what the collective consciousness BELIEVE.
You don't have to physicaly be in, or see a desert to believe in it.
Its believe that makes the world, an OBEing makes you see specific parts of that belief freely.
=======
=======
The brain provides a method that allows the sentients (some may say soul), to understand the world.
The brain is a sophsitcated paturn recognition device.
The mind is a combination of the sentients and the brain.
Only if the sentients is caused purely by the brain, then they are the same thing.
I don't believe the brain cause's sentients, because there is no evolutionary reason for it.
=====
====

Overall:
I belief OBE's and dreams are both when the sentients travels to another layer of reality.
The differance is dreams are genrated internaly, by the person dreaming.
But OBE is generated externaly, from the beliefs of the world.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-27 at 16:34.
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  #4  
Old 2002-02-27, 14:10
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Nope darky dreams are no another layer of reality
its not another universe
it's the universe that is in your head
all dreams you dream must have something to do with your life in "this layer of reality". Therefore it can't be another layer of reality since it's info that your brain collected in this layer.

Dreaming is when you become a tiny little figure and go inside your brains, yet the brain is laid in this reality.
That's also why sometimes if you're in concious you can control the dream, and I don't mean control yourself the way you think the way you act but controling the whole dream, suddenly make up things, restart dream all over, etc. etc.

That's why it's not a completly another layer of reality yet it is a layer of reality that is inside another one. a sub-layer of reality, if you'd like.
Only problem is, I can't make a dream stop. Wake myself up. That's what I'm still wondering about. I think it's because this would make your figure in the sub-layer of reality die, and in your sub-concious you don't want that.


{}ghost{}, the dumbass foolish muppet
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  #5  
Old 2002-02-27, 14:29
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Quote:
Originally posted by {}ghost{}
Nope darky dreams are no another layer of reality
its not another universe
it's the universe that is in your head
all dreams you dream must have something to do with your life in "this layer of reality". Therefore it can't be another layer of reality since it's info that your brain collected in this layer.
No, you clearly don't understand what I mean.
-
This may become an overused example, and some people may take it wrong, but anyway:
If you were in the Matrix, no matter what reality was presented to you, if that was the only reality you remember then that world be "REAL".
Reality is relative.
From an exteria viewer, the guy trapped in the matrix is not in the real world.
But it is the real world to him.
Likewise the guy outside the matrix, could also be in an another matrix. He thinks he's world is real.
But someone outside of that, would think his isn't!
And so on, and so on.
One persons real, is another persons unreal.
I belief there is no real world, only many layers of fake worlds.
Dreams are one of these.
It may seem like a sub-reality to us.
But what if you dream in a dream?
That the first dream would be REALER.
Are world is MORE REAL then what we call dreams, but dreams are still another layer of reality.
==
No, not all dreams I have have something to do with my life.
But even if they did that would prove nothing.
It only proves that one reality is dependant on another, it does not prove that it is not a reality.
Our memory dosn't exactly work when dreaming anyway.
Often when dreaming I have "more knowledge" then when I wake up. Maybe I'm just remembering having more knowlegde, when I don't, its impossible to tell, because the knowledge isn't remembered when I'm awake.
Its as though at the start of dreams i'm given infomation, that is latter taken away. (So, even when I do remember a dream, I forget things I knew in the dream)
------
oh, and it certainly isn't another universe!
Universe means everything.
That would include all layers of reality.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-27 at 14:35.
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  #6  
Old 2002-02-27, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame


No, you clearly don't understand what I mean.
-
This may become an overused example, and some people may take it wrong, but anyway:
If you were in the Matrix, no matter what reality was presented to you, if that was the only reality you remember then that world be "REAL".
Reality is relative.
From an exteria viewer, the guy trapped in the matrix is not in the real world.
But it is the real world to him.
Likewise the guy outside the matrix, could also be in an another matrix. He thinks he's world is real.
But someone outside of that, would think his isn't!.
And so on, and so on.
One persons real, is anothers persons unreal.
I belief there is no real world, only many layers of fake worlds.
Dreams are one of these.
It may seem like a sub-reality to us.
But what if you dream in a dream?
That the first dream would be REALER.
Are world is MORE REAL then what we call dreams, but dreams are still another layer of reality.
==
Well
convinced me
dreams are a stand-alone layer of reality.
Yes I think reality is a realtive defintion as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
No, not all dreams I have have something to do with my life.
But even if they did that would prove nothing.
It only proves that one reality is dependant on another, it does not prove that it is not a reality.
Our memory dosn't exactly work when dreaming anyway.
Often when dreaming I have "more knowledge" then when I wake up. Maybe I'm just remembering having more knowlegde, when I don't, its impossible to tell, because the knowledge isn't remembered when I'm awake.
Its as though at the start of dreams i'm given infomation, that is latter taken away. (So, even when I do remember a dream, I forget things I knew in the dream)
------
oh, and it certainly isn't another universe!
Universe means everything.
That would include all layers of reality.
Nope it's not true dreams always will have something in the tiniest way to do with your life m8
also, the human brain doesn't use even 50% of its ability
so you might remember things you don't remember you do
and also you might use your brain better when you're asleep since it's not wasted on other stuff
im watching tv right now so i cant really expand hope u got my point
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Old 2002-02-27, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally posted by {}ghost{}
Nope it's not true dreams always will have something in the tiniest way to do with your life m8
also, the human brain doesn't use even 50% of its ability
so you might remember things you don't remember you do
and also you might use your brain better when you're asleep since it's not wasted on other stuff
im watching tv right now so i cant really expand hope u got my point
Yes, and no...
Yes, Your right the brain probably works much better when asleep. And you probably can remember stuff you couldn't normally do.
But no, that doesn't match all of the experiences I've had.
eg.
Sometimes in dreams I find I can read ancient / alien writing.
I know what it says.
In the dream, I take this knowledge for grantage.
I don't go like "wow! I can read this".
But when I wake up, even if I can remember the dream (which is rare), I completely forget the writing.

Because the writing (probably) doesn't exist on this layer of reality, there is no way I could be remembering it from this world.
Therefor, certain memories seem to only "exist" in the reality of the dream.
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Old 2002-02-27, 17:03
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O_o you totally missed my point,
I didn't mean it as things you learned but don't remember, I meant that though you didn't learn alien language, it symbolises in a way something from this layer of reality

for one thing, it might just be you want to learn alien language
and since you can control your dreams
you enabled yourself unconciously that option
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  #9  
Old 2002-02-27, 17:17
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No, I already said some things do come from this layer of reality.
But the whole point was that I didn't learn the langerage!
I just read it in the dream as if it was English, as if I'd been using it for years.
Its as though the knowledge was "activated" the instant I fell into the dream.
--
But there is also large oringinal imput.
Lets say I did want to learn an alien langerage.
Then the dream may do that.
But where does the actual langerage in the dream come from?
The actual symbals,shapes struture, meaning....
Allthough I don't remember the symbals I do remember reading them.
And at the time, I didn't know I was dreaming.
Therefore during the dream, the langerage must be "real".
(else, it would have given the game away that i was dreaming).
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Old 2002-02-27, 17:27
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It was the shapes you would think an alien language would look like
if you were surprised because it wasn't, that was because you wanted to be surprised, and made it happen
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Old 2002-02-27, 17:48
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Langerage is more then just shapes.
eg.
If someone in real life handed me a card with
"DFdsG SFGGERT FDF VBNVBDETVC CVB"
Written on it, and the knowledge of what it meaned suddenly appeared in my head, don't you think I'd be a little supicous?
Remember, during the dream I believed I was in a real world.
==
Of course, seeing as memories are not very reliable, it is possibly I'm just falsely remembering that I didn't know it was a dream during the dream.....but thats kind of confusing
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Old 2002-02-27, 18:17
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Not that tough to get it, to be honest, you just said that you might be wrong about not knowing it was a dream while having the dream..

Ok maybe it does
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Old 2002-02-27, 19:57
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Atre, why do I have the impression that you passed the book and all the information that I gave you to all the people on your list?
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I will post my comments later, I don´t have time this moment.
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Old 2002-02-27, 20:54
Atresica Atresica is offline
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Heir, no I didn't, I was talking with Axx about dreams and I thought he would like to see it. And he told silverfish


Silverfish, you know what I think.

One- how can you even claim it's fake when you didn't try it? Oh sure, 3 times, but than you're not even half way
Two- you said you only believed or disbelieved with prove, than how can you state you don't believe it when no one researched it in a normal way
Three- Ever thought that it is possible that you might not leave your body, but that you 'expand' you awereness? Difficult to explain but it's more that the reality comes to you than the other way around

well, I'd love to visit you if I'm able to do it. The only thing I need to be sure of is that you allow me. There is also this thing as the law of the threefault, meaning that if you do something bad, you get it 3 times back (no this is not some bullshit I just saw at "The Craft" or some other movie), same counts for doing good.

Also, I'm doing this little research myself. Meaning I'm trying to study everything of occultism and finding a way to show to the sceptics that it's true/false. Of course, this can take a few years, but than I've got evidence, unlike you have.
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Old 2002-02-27, 21:46
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Observations, before reading this post.

1) I believe I don´t have such a high and complete scientific vision as you do, and I readed your thread with my simple eyes. I made this text with the vision of a occultist, and because of this 'vision difference', you can easily misunderstand me. So please don´t crucifice me by my mistakes, I wrote this thing out trying to be as clear as I can. I can also have misunderstood things from your thread.
2) Don´t think that I´m some kind of weirdo if I start to call some words that are suppose to be 'it' as 'she' or 'he'. In portuguese we rarely use 'it'. So I may call soul 'she', body 'he', etc.
3) If I start to mention too much other people, don´t think that I don´t have my own opinions. When I do it, it´s because I agree with what I am quoting or because it´s usefull to the actual context.
-
Definition of magic, by occultism:
"Big science. " (Ethmologic)
"The oldest, culturally richest and smartest nations considered the Magic as the science and art of the Magic. Being very subtile and complex, rarely times she´s showened with the necessary competence and seriousness." (Orientalism)
"Through the veil of all the hieratical and mistical allegories of the old dogmas, through the darkness and bizarre proves of all the initiations, beneath the seal of all the sacred scriptures, in the ancient ruins of Nínive or Tebas, above the degenarated rocks of the ancient temples and in the darked face of the Assiria´s and Egypt sphinx, in the monstruous or wonderfull paintures that produce to the India beliefer the sacred pages of the Vedas, [...], are found the tracing of a doctrine in everywhere the same and in everywhere carefully hiddened. The occult philosophy seems to be the matrix of all the intelectual forces, the key of all the divine obscurities, and the absoluct queem of society, in the times where it was exclusively reservated to the education of priests and kings.
She ruled in the Persia with the mages, that one day died, as die the the lords of the world, for having abused of their power, [...], to this science, said the people, nothing is impossible; she rules the elements, she knows that language of the stars and she rules the march of the stars (originally astros and estrelas); the moon, facing her voice, falls bleeded in the sky; [...]; there´s what was Magic since Zoroastro to Manés, since Orfeu to Appolonious of Tiana, when the cristianism [...]dared to publicaly destroy with it anatems this philosophy, and reduced her, this way, to be more occult and misterious than never." (Éliphas Lévi)
"Different from the occult science because it´s a pratical science, while occultism is only teorical. Praticing magic without knowing occultism is,though, the same trying to drive a train without passing before by a hard training." (Papus)
"Magick is the science and art of causing changes to ocur in conformity with will" (Aleister Crowley - Uncle Al, according to Pedro Chaves :P)
"The magician works in a temple, the Universal (be it remembered!) coterminous with himself."
"Magic is the science of understand oneself and one´s conditios. It is the art of appyling that understanding in action." (Magic in the Theory and Pratice)
Definition of magic, by lexicologists:
"The suppost art of producing effects against the natural order"
-
In this humble text, I will use the definition of magic by the occultism, which is the art the studies this science. And I prefer to trust in the definition of a science by the science that studies that science than trusting another science (urgh, that´s confuse).
-
Reply to Point one:
-
I prefer to beleive that we, our bodies, our mind, is not adhered to certain basic, logical laws. The myth of the caves says that a man that passed his entyre life seeing shadows in caves didn´t believe in people when he saw their 'real' form. I believe that there´s no right or wrong, since both of the options are right in certain therms, and both of the options are wrong. I don´t agree that the fact of thousands of experiments have being made totally destroy the possibility of something being fake, or real. Pranayama yogues in their last level can survive without breathing. Is this possible? Probably not, does this means that you can face it as false? No, if you can see it with your own eyes. Is this a miracle? Éliphas Lévi said the answer in Dogma and ritual of High Magic:
"Question: Do you make miracles and teach us the way to do them?
Answer: If by miracles you understand things against nature or effects that weren´t explained by their causes, I don´t do and I don´t teach to do simmilar miracles. God by himself wouldn´t do them."
By your philosophy, he does teach miracles. By his, not. It´s the law of duality. There´s no wrong or right, this way. As there´s no wrong or right, there´s no 'reason', there´s no 'experience', there´s no 'faith'. Everything has the minus and the plus.
-
Reply to Point Two:
-
You seem to be talking without having deeply studied the Astral Projection. A very accepted principle is that dreams ARE astral projections, and when we wake up, they are mixed and desorganised, creating that 'crazy' aspect.
I believe and I don´t believe in that definition.
For first I will give a word about the 'real' and the 'unreal' astral projection.
To 99% of the 6 billion people of the world, the astral projection made is nothing more than a dream. This, because their 'souls' are not developed enough to go to higher planes, to see with higher eyes, to experiment higher feelings. What the astral projection made by these people is, is nothing more than a swallow in a world made by our ego - EGO - reflections. But here´s again the law of duality: what´s above is below, and that´s a clear reference to the micro and macro cosmos. While there´re planes around us, the same planes are inside us, in each cell of our body. In some weird way, the ego world that you project in is the same outside. It´s not something that can be understood. When we dream, we go to this world, and we travel in there. By a lot of ocasions, like the food that we eat, our thoughts, this sort of thing, we can project, while dreaming, in 'good' or 'bad' (superior or inferior planes) worlds. Those worlds are inside us and also outside us. The astral light that we see while we´re projecting is different from our: when you get awakened, the astral light is transformed by your mind in a understandable image; which is, 100% of times, unreal, different.
Now, the 'real' astral projection.
The sensable man, with correct sexual fluids and awakened kundalini, thinks in astral projection as an activity like drinking a glass of water. He can project just by thinking about this. And when he projects, he sees the real astral light. He sees reality as it really is. He´s not anymore in a world of ego, because he has NO EGO. He sees the pure world.
Yes, that means that is possible to eliminate wishes and ego. It´s possible to 'really' dream, or 'really' project.
Conclusion: OBE is the same thing than dreaming, but in a conscious way.
-
The entyre nature is made by two principal substancies: the Akasa, or ether, and the other Prana, or energy. Everything that in the universe has a form or a material existence is made by akasa. Gas, liquid or solid, all the universe, and, in fact, all the kind of existence that can receive the name of created, is a product of this subtile and invisible Akasa and in each end of cicle regrets to the start point. In the same way, all the forms of nature force that the man knows - gravitation, light, heat, eletricity, magnetism - all the things that can be grouped as "energy", thoughts, intelectual, animal forces are manifestations of the cosmic Prana. From Prana, they grow for existence, and in Prana, they will finally die. In this universe, each kind of force, mental or physic, cna be converted to prana. In this way, our 'soul' is made by Akasa, ether, not a "scientifically new" kind of substance.
-
Adjusting his energy fields, is possible, to a real astral traveller, say the color of your best friend´s car, etc.
-
Reply to Point 3:
-
The fact that removing parts of the brain modifies memory does not mean that an 'immortal memory' is invalid. Only means that the brain is not more than a processer. Maybe certain parts of the brain are processer to parts of memory and such - is like you have a *.txt file in your computer, but you don´t actually have the editor to open it. But the mind only needs the brain to process information in the physical world, and training the body to process more parts of your immortal memory - like memories of previous lifes and such - you can remember them. That means that a brain is only needed in our physicall world, nothing more than this.

- By Mortur Medur Morphin, a dumb guy
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  #16  
Old 2002-02-27, 22:38
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the Heir - Wow, its amazing how much of what you just wrote I agree with.
Allthough,i'm taking it all from a different angle.
I'm more of an occult-scientist then a scientific occultist

You should look in to the Quantom side of science, it has very strong connections with much of this stuff.
(skip the actualy atomic effects, look a shrodiners cat or whatever hes called..)
-
Particular, I agree with your last point that our brain (in this world) is only good for this physical world.
My idea that a brain provides a means for the soul to access reality.
Different realitys, might nead different brains.
-
After all, our brain was formed very dependant on physical laws, so any other realitys would have different brains~probably not even remotely reconsiable to our current ones.
I mean, I believe there is infinite layers to the universe, and concepts such as energy,matter, ect. are mearly a tiny fraction of the possibilites of "reality".
They may exist on other layers, they may not, but the point is they don't have to exist on all layers.
Therefor, what I call a brain is not the specific human biological thing, but a concept.
A brain is anything that can connect a soul/sentients to a body. (or a soul/sentients to a reality).
==
My simple diffinitions:

Science is the proccess of making logical deductions about the world based on evidence.

Magic is any manipulation of nature, that can not be explaned (currently) by science.

Technology is any manipulation of nature (for the benifit of the manipulator) that can be explain by science.

(Note: when I say nature, I mean the "nature" of the universe/reality, not as in "mother nature")
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  #17  
Old 2002-02-27, 23:17
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If our current brain is our key to this reality,
how did Bomba! got in
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  #18  
Old 2002-02-27, 23:23
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I take Franz Bardon words as my words.
In the hermetism, we see things like energy, matter, thinking, force (Tattwas) as things that exist in all the realities, since they were the first manifestations of the "Akasha" (the first element, the god, the reality, the everything, the unexplainable), but they exist in different ways in all the realities. The way that we know them are just one form, there are others for other layers of existion. They may not exist in the way we know them, but they do, in some way.
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  #19  
Old 2002-02-27, 23:32
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Quote:
Originally posted by {}ghost{}
If our current brain is our key to this reality,
how did Bomba! got in
That should be how did Bomba gEt in.
or
How come Bomba! got in.

You muppet
[/yes, I know i make worse mistakes]
==
the Heir - Well, I dunno. Its hard to work out, bucause it becomes like diffinitions.
Energy as we know it, only exists in this world as a concept.
Same as matter.
They are concepts used to explain experiences.
So, they certinly wouldn't exist in the same form elsewhere.
But wether they are reflections of higher "concepts" I don't know.
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  #20  
Old 2002-02-28, 01:58
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The words such as "miracles" and "magic" have came about to be known as the words that work as a description to anyone/anything that cannot be explained with scientific laws or theories...however, these culturaly/socialy developed definitions of the word like "sourcery" or "magic" is more inacurate then anything else. I cannot say that the definition is false because it stayes to be one of those that go along with the word. Yet I am allowed to call it inacurate sense the interpretation of this term is set highly off course.

Magic as in sourcery, as in the Art holds a totaly different meaning. Although there are many very detailed version of the meaning as well as those that are based on different view points, the following is the most general of the sort. And what it simply states, is that magic/sourcery/art is a mental or physical ability that an entity (object, body, soul, essence, etc) can project through itself by bending these abilities and/or certain elements of environment (either consciously, non-consciously, or mechenicaly) to its own will and expanding the senses (such as vision, smell, imagination or anything that one consideres to be a sense of an entity or being) to higher/lower/different levels of capabilities, eventualy to make some sort of change in an environment or an entity. I realise that this is rather a simple definition of "magic" because it actually consists of many other additional details, most which depend on one's own opinion. And while this meaning is mine, and there fore wether I want to or not, my own interpretation of the term is there, I tried to come up with most general one.

Also, I've been seeing how the term "science" has been taken a lot more seriously then what it is. Do KNOW, that what science actually is, is the observation concluded from the five most common sense of a human being (vision, touch, smell, taste, and hearing). Through the history of mankind, science has been the subject that we have been using to attempt and explain things around us. And while science may seem acurate and logical to the things around us, also know that its observations are made only from our basic senses and there fore cannot be taken to such extreme extends. We do not know what other senses we or others may develop, and because scientific observations apply to only to the five we use, it stays LIMITED. It is a fact that magic stands outside the realm of sceince. It does NOT mean that it is false or true. It just means that science cannot deal with it because both terms go by their own rules and stay seperate. They may show or have a connection, but neither can be used to explain or "prove" as well as "disprove" eachother.

Note, that the paragraph above applies only to those that see science, its laws and theories as the suprime explanation for everything around them/existence/universe(s)/etc...
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  #21  
Old 2002-02-28, 07:41
Silverfish Silverfish is offline
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No spell checking....

Point 1 - Again, more stuff about the brain...

The Heir, you say that 'The fact that removing parts of the brain modifies memory does not mean that an 'immortal memory' is invalid. Only means that the brain is not more than a processer.' and 'That means that a brain is only needed in our physicall world, nothing more than this.' Now, if we are to regard teh brain as a mere processor - a tenporary home for an imortal soual - we run into any number of problems. While I agree that memory loss is not an effictive example of the mind/brain duality, and that there is every possibility that there is an imortal, all knowing soul that is simple confined by the limitations of our own brain - in regard to senses, conclusions etc -, I cannot agree wholeheartedly that the brain and mind do not exist as a single entity.
Firstly, let us define the brain. It is a lumb of neurons, nerve cells and the like, whose primary purpose is the interpreatation of the signals from the world around us. That means that the 'MIND' is incapable of sensory input, ON ITS OWN. This idea of a 'blind' mind ties in with Darkflames suggestion that there are a multitude - an infinate amount - of minds which are needed to interpret different planes of existence. However, if we are to seperate certain - in fact all - biolical functions from the mind, then we are faced with a rather large problem.
Emotions.
Now, emotions are not sensory input. Of course, sensory input can cause fear, or love, or anger. Some might say that these are simply biological effects, stimulated by the release of glandular chemicals - adrenaline etc. - and regulated by the fleshy mass of tissue we term the brain. But we know that emotions are not a purely biological imperative; they are connected deeply with our consciousness, and memories, dreams or images can invoke a complex array of emotional responses. It is hard to convey the idea; but emotions are an integral part of our conciousness.
Now, if we remove a portion of a persons brain that controls, say, anger, that person in thenceforth incapable of feeling any anger. Now, purists will say; that is simply because our BIOLOGICAL ability to feel anger is gone, we still have an immortal soul that is capable of feeling anger.
My point is that, if the soul - mind - needs a brain to feel anger, then it and the brain are inextricably connected.
In fact, if our minds require our brains to feel sensations or emotions, a mind on its own would be, well, fuck boring. This then raises the suggestion that such an immortal soul would be emotionless *without the ability to feel emotions*...
I'm not sure what we can conclude from this, except that any OBE'er would need their body to feel pleasure, pain, or fear etc, simply because such sensations and emotions are BIOLOGICAL in nature.

Point 1 B - What are you trying to prove by using the quantum theory?

Quantum states are interesting things. A partical can be here, there, or anywhere. However, there are certain indubitable areas of Knowlege where only a truth or a falacy can be known. These are, essentially, philosophical logic, and mathematical logic. 2 + 2 will equal 4, and up will always be the opposite of down.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here :P

Basically, quantum physics is not evidence for a multiplicity of universes, nor is it an irrefutable reason to doubt the veracity of vertain basic statements and laws. The beauty of the relationship between quantum mechanics and conventional physics is that quantum effects DON'T REALLY SEEM TO MATTER; in the end, and on a grand scale, the chaotic unpredicatability of the quantum theory has no real influence on our physical world.

Point 2 - The Matrix (c) is not a valid philosohical example.

The idea - first envisaged by Descartes - that there is some screwy demon creature out there feeding us false information, has grown very, very popular in recent years - I blame it on the matrix- ..
Ideally, people question the reality of the world they live in. Inevitably, there are comparisons with dreams, and people insist that we can wake up from this world into a better, brighter, realer one.
This is, of course, an Ideal. Dreams are not some primative reality, they are simply a reflection of the events of this world. Dreams are chaotic, hard to make sense of, wierd, whacky, strange and fun. They are not a seperate existence. Our ability wake up from dreams is not indicative of an ability to, similarly, wake up from this world.
Let me explain why.
Dreams are analagous to current events. We cannot imagine what we do not know, and the same holds true for dreams. We dream about what we know about, we draw on our experiences, fears etc. If we have, as some suggest, an infinate, all encompassing knowlege, why do we not dream of other planes, planets, universes, minds etc.
Why are we trapped by our experiences. Because it is all we know. OBE's don't travel to venus, or travel back in time to the 5th century BC. They can't tell me the layout of a secret military base, or what colour my hair is, because THEY SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.
In this case, we can assume that if there is another world outside this one (a if this were all a dream) then it would be no more complex, and our knowlege no more complete, because it would be, in essence, the knowlege (the sum knowlege) that we have in this world. Eg, a 2 year old (with an immortal soul) dreams of a frightening teddy-bear. They cannot dream of severed limbs, or blood and guts because this is outside there knowlege. Similarly, if this world were a dream, one would find it impossible to learn anything ... because:

We base dreams on our experiences and knowlege -> dreams are replays of knowlege, experience, it is impossible to learn anything new (well, experience anything new) through dreams, because they are simply replays of current knowlege...

Umm...

Ok, experience equals one, because we learn through interaction, in a world we do not full understand.
Dream experience equals zero, because we cannot learn anything new, because the world is defined by limitations of our knowlege (Ie, I cannot dream about being a cat, and claim that I now know what is is to be a cat...)

So, 1 + 0 = 1... Dreams do not contribute to our knowledge as a whole.

If we can learn, we must be consious, awake, and not in a dream world (ie, you cannot dream that you 'learn' , only that you know, because a dream world is a construction of your own mind, and any knowlege you dream of, you must already have)

Umm, that made no SENSE (or SNES)...

Fuck..

Look, this is a wierd topic.

Point 3 - Biological reasons..

Where do you draw the line at consciousness. You can either say that all things - plants, bacterium, mice - are conscious, or you draw some line, some aribrary point where you say , "right, all creatures above this line are conscious.." Now, the first suggestion is painfully ludicrous, it would mean that bacterium, the countless billions of trillions of bacterium that are concious, are all part of one massive, all powerful astral realm.
The other suggestion is not as ludicrous, but is very damaging for the idea of an astral realm. If we suggest that their is some biological critereon that needs to be fufilled before we can term a creature as conscious, that suggests a biolical relationship between the mind and brain. Again, this suggests a very close connection with the organ of the brain and the conscious mind. One cannot say, for example, that a tree can be conscious, even though it is, accordingly, filled with astral star juice or whatever... (I can't think of the correct name , Ashkra??? Don't know)..

Point 4 - Look, I'm pissed Off..

I can'r argue very well, as most of you have seen. But, FFS, I'm 16, I'm not good at any science, let alone philosophy.
I can make arguments, but there is no 'evidence' *sorry, atresica*
I just don't get mysticism. I mean, isn't the world beautiful. I mean, its science in action, but its an amazing place. I, personally, love it. I love existence. I'll be annoyed if I die, but I know that I WILL DIE. I don't like it when people think that they're so special that they have immortal, undying, all knowing, omnipotent souls.
Look, I'm 16, I'm fallible, I'm probably wrong. I wish I'd never brought this up.
It actually would be nice to think people will live on after death, and I'd love to meet my grandfather again sometime, but I know - or beleive - that when he dies, he dies.
I'll miss him..
But I won't stop living, or loving this planet.
If you search for answers for your entire life, you can never enjoy the knowledge you gain. If there is an immortal soul, I suggest you stop trying to look for it, because, well, when you die, its going to catch up with you, isn't it.
Stop being so bloody serious and enjoy yourself.
Play LBA, for godsakes.
Anyway, about belief, I can't really do it with science. I mean, I can't go out there and say "Well, I believe in the motherfucking awesome power of the atom. Like, God can go suck it, cos we have the BOMB!" can I?
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  #22  
Old 2002-02-28, 13:33
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If we're taking this to the physical side here -

There are theories that you could go back in time (OR travel to another dimension) if you go through a black hole (impossible to check since the black hole's vacuum gravity power will tear your body apart) or by passing the speed of light, and you can't do that because... well -

The.. umm.. "Relative Theory"? no idea how you would call that in english really, anyhows, Einstien said that the only thing that will always stay the same is the speed of light - the maxium of speed. (So I guess up won't be always opposite to down )
Now, moment you get faster, except that your (I think it would be called Thena in english but I'm not sure) well, "impact power" goes higher, your mass itself becomes heavier as well. Then, in order to move heavier mass you need more power. Somewhere around the speed of light, you will need a huge amount of power, and when you'll reach the speed of light you'll need endless power, which is obviously impossible reaching.
Rays of light move because they have 0 mass. therefore it's endless multiple by 0, which is 0 - the power you need to move a ray of light.
Also (general info), the closer you come in your moving to the speed of light, the slower your phisics goes - and therefore your biologic moves slower as well - meaning that if you spend all your life on a plane, you will live longer, well, not longer, because it will be the same time, technicly, the seconds on your watch will still go the same, but on someone's watch down there it will go alot faster. Well our aircrafts can't really get close enough to the speed of light to have any signficant meaning, but this has been proven using atomic clocks.

Faster you go, slower phisical around you goes, hence biological changes go slower as well, hence you live longer than the people on earth though you will live the same amount of time technically.




Phisics and Math are wierd

Press.. ugh dunno the exact word but well if 2^2 = 4 then this action on 4 will come out as 2

well press that and 2. You will get a number about 1.4405273509732522384732473249327493274271094710
[/me just pressing random numbers on keyboard]

Endless number
irrational one
you won't find a pattern there either
now take a wire
shoe lace
whatever
create a square of a 1Cm over 1Cm
space inside it is 1Cm then, right?
Now widen it up a bit, till square's space is 2Cm
get a ruler and check how long one of the sides was
that's the exact number for <this-action-i-dont-know-its-name> 2.
It's not endless, it will be a rational number, probably very long yet one that has an end.


Same goes to the known paradox of
If I want to get from here to my room's door, I can do this in two halves - one half each time. After passing half of the distance, I can split the remaining distance into 2 halves again - after passing a half of the remaining, I can do that again the what's left right now - and so on.
As you can imagine, I will never get to the door, only really really close, but I would never get to the door because I will always go half way first.
That's technically how you get to somewhere, first you have to walk one half if you're going 100% of it right

"Rannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, come downstairs, lunch is ready!"

Well get this:
*{}ghost{} goes to door and leaves room*

Oh my god, I just broke all math rules -

YAY NO MORE MATH IN THE WORLD

ty ty
send the checks later



Da ghost, with another lecture - A.K.A. "The Science One"
if you want a Microsoft one too just start a new thread

~Master {}ghost{}
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  #23  
Old 2002-02-28, 16:53
Atresica Atresica is offline
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Re: No spell checking....

Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish
Point 1 - Again, more stuff about the brain...
thought not about quoting this completly, would get a bit long.
Well, anyway, I think people are capeble of creating a 'reflection' of themselves, a sort of energy patron that cannot exist for long but is capeble to go anywhere.

Quote:

Point 1 B - What are you trying to prove by using the quantum theory?
Because you should check that link I gave you earlier

Quote:

Point 2 - The Matrix (c) is not a valid philosohical example.
here you say about dreams not able to learn us anything that we don't know.
How come I see things I've not seen before? How come they give you inspiration? How come some can actually give you answers to things you don't know?

I think that they do contain things we haven't seen yet (I'd love to invite you in a dream of mine, pretty weird stuff going on there), but that they also can give you new knowledge, though often in a rather unclear form.

Also, how do you know that someone can't OBE to Venus? Have you asked anyone? nope, guess not, or you've seen idiots on tv or something.
Also, that you can freely move through reality doesn't mean you can travel back in time

Quote:
Point 3 - Biological reasons..
I think everything that lives, is conscience. (in fact, you might even be able to considder certain computer virusses as life forms). There is this theory that all the cells of your body contain conscienceness, and that the brains are only a organ to make sure your body works right.

Quote:
Point 4 - Look, I'm pissed Off..

I can'r argue very well, as most of you have seen. But, FFS, I'm 16, I'm not good at any science, let alone philosophy.
I can make arguments, but there is no 'evidence' *sorry, atresica*
I just don't get mysticism. I mean, isn't the world beautiful. I mean, its science in action, but its an amazing place. I, personally, love it. I love existence. I'll be annoyed if I die, but I know that I WILL DIE. I don't like it when people think that they're so special that they have immortal, undying, all knowing, omnipotent souls.
I don't mind you having no arguments, nor being bad at science or philosophy.
I think that what we see around us is not even half of the world, and I would like to explore that part as well.
I'm not sure whether to believe in life after death or not. But there is a research published about people who had a near death experience (and even were dead for a little while). They all (and that were 500 people from different cultures, different races, and different opinions) went through a tunnel and came to a beautifull place. They all claim that they never felt them so happy before and some even claim to have seen dead relatives. Soon they heard someone saying that they weren't ready yet and returned to their body.

One can say that this might be a reaction of the body, but it's a damn cool one, and personly, I wouldn't mind that my body would be faking an experience that would last 5 seconds, but for me, for eternity.


Quote:
Look, I'm 16, I'm fallible, I'm probably wrong. I wish I'd never brought this up.
Don't think that way. I don't mind atheists at all (as long they got good arguments, one's I can live in). Also, don't blame yourself for bringing this up, unless you do not apprichiate the fact that we also wish to share our opinion.


Quote:
It actually would be nice to think people will live on after death, and I'd love to meet my grandfather again sometime, but I know - or beleive - that when he dies, he dies.
I'll miss him..
But I won't stop living, or loving this planet.
If you search for answers for your entire life, you can never enjoy the knowledge you gain. If there is an immortal soul, I suggest you stop trying to look for it, because, well, when you die, its going to catch up with you, isn't it.
Stop being so bloody serious and enjoy yourself.
One day, at religion class, we had to say what reason life has, as stated in my signiture, my life is only meanfull when I can search for the answers to questions that concern me. Take them away, and I would die of boringness.
I clearly experience reality on a different way you do, you think that because I search for answers, I cannot enjoy, yet I do.

I think this all has to do with the way we wish to fill our lives. I would be bored to death if I couldn't learn anymore. You see, reality amazes me every time, whether it's in a scientific way, or more the occultic way.

Oh and I'm not that serious to myself

Quote:
Play LBA, for godsakes.
I don't have to play it anymore, I live in it

Quote:
Anyway, about belief, I can't really do it with science. I mean, I can't go out there and say "Well, I believe in the motherfucking awesome power of the atom. Like, God can go suck it, cos we have the BOMB!" can I?
Sure you can, depends what you see as religion, actually, any believe is a sort of religion...
I actually like to back my religion up with (scientific) facts, looks better in arguments

anyway, nice talking to ya
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  #24  
Old 2002-02-28, 17:25
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Darkflame Darkflame is offline
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#New Post#

Lightwing - No, Science is purely a process.
Its meaning is not connected with any of the sense's.
eg.
You can use's scientific processe's to stufy abstracts enitys.
This could be anything from basic maths, to logic deductions about the universe.
Science is not limited at all, because it is the process of logical deduction. Nothing more, nothing less.
The methods used in that process, or the results of that process are not part of science.
===
Also, your diffinition of magic was more a discription of what it does. (/can do)
Manipulation of nature, by methods not known by science, still fits every example you said.
(Your "diffinition" is not really that bad a diffinition, it is certainly better that stupid diffinition of life...)

Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish
Point 1 - Again, more stuff about the brain...
However, if we are to seperate certain - in fact all - biolical functions from the mind, then we are faced with a rather large problem.
Emotions..........My point is that, if the soul - mind - needs a brain to feel anger, then it and the brain are inextricably connected.
This is why I talk about sentients.
Sentients itself, is just that, sentients.
No memorys, or emotion.
Now, those that believe in a soul would say the brain acts as a translator for the soul which has sentients, and it might have other things (memorys/emotion).
Those that don't believe in a soul, say that the brain possess sentients directly.
I believe that sentients is an enity in itself, a fundmental "element " of the universe.
I believe that is you put a sentients in another brain, that sentients could experience different emotions,feelings, memorys.
I'm not sure weather there is a "soul" which can contain other stuff (memories,emotions, ect).
Its a possiblity, I'm sure we only see a fraction of reality, so there is certainly "room" for a physical/metaphysical soul.
If my idea about layers of reality is correct, then it is likely that it is possible to careing memories between certain realitys.
eg.
IN THE MATRIX (C)
A mind in the false world, is infact the "brain" of the real world.
So waking up from one layer of reality, allows you to keep the memories of that reality.
Likewise it is pretty easy to see how OBEing could work in a Matrix like situtation.
--
Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish
Point 1 B - What are you trying to prove by using the quantum theory?
Quantum states are interesting things. A partical can be here, there, or anywhere. However, there are certain indubitable areas of Knowlege where only a truth or a falacy can be known. These are, essentially, philosophical logic, and mathematical logic. 2 + 2 will equal 4, and up will always be the opposite of down.


I'm trying to say that there are NO absolutes.
2+2 will NOT always equal 4.
Up will not always be the oppersite of down.
-
The words we use are just discriptions of this level of reality.
Concepts such as "2" and "up", we can only be certain they
are relivent on this reality.
We can not imagine replacements for these concepts easily, becase are brains are designed to handel this world.
It is hard for us to imagine drawing a circle, where the ratio of diameter to circumfrence is say, 5.
But it is possible. (and I'm not talking about a different numbering system...the very guidelines of spacetime may by different, heck space time might not even exist).
==
Quantom theory shows that things are only absolute when obsevered.
It is a hard theory to prove, in fact the whole point is you can't.
But it does go directly against your initial statemeant (pt1).


Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish

Basically, quantum physics is not evidence for a multiplicity of universes, nor is it an irrefutable reason to doubt the veracity of vertain basic statements and laws.


No, as I said repeatadly there is no multiple universes.
The Universe is EVERYTHING.
You kind of missed the point.
The point was that we can only be certain then "veracity of vertain basic statements and laws" applys HERE and NOW.
Your missing the whole concept of a relative reality, that no matter how much you fall alseep, or how much you "Wake" up.
Whatever reality you are in, is REAL then and there.
You can only messure realness realitive to your current possition.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish

Point 2 - The Matrix (c) is not a valid philosohical example.


The matrix was only a handy example, to demonstrate how we can only be truely certain of our own existance, regulardless of what reality is presented to us.
Its perfectly valid, as long as it is taken as a concept.
ITs is highly unlikely that any higher reality would have the same physical laws, let alone
have simelar technology to us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish

This is, of course, an Ideal. Dreams are not some primative reality, they are simply a reflection of the events of this world. Dreams are chaotic, hard to make sense of, wierd, whacky, strange and fun. They are not a seperate existence. Our ability wake up from dreams is not indicative of an ability to, similarly, wake up from this world.
Let me explain why.
Dreams are analagous to current events. We cannot imagine what we do not know, and the same holds true for dreams. We dream about what we know about, we draw on our experiences, fears etc.

1. You can imagine what you do not know.
You can't imagine what you CAN NOT know. (ie, imagining something outside the minds ability to comprehend~say, a 5 demensional object)

2.No, you havn't read the conversation above had you?
Even if dreams draws all information from our world, there is no reason why our world can not be drawing sources from anyother "higher" reality.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish
If we have, as some suggest, an infinate, all encompassing knowlege, why do we not dream of other planes, planets, universes, minds etc.
Why are we trapped by our experiences. Because it is all we know. OBE's don't travel to venus, or travel back in time to the 5th century BC. They can't tell me the layout of a secret military base, or what colour my hair is, because THEY SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

a) Some people do.
b) Dreams are not determained by what we know external. Dreams are a "lower" reality, determained by what are mind is capable of knowing.
They might one day be explained by monitering the brain, and saying they are random memorys. But that would be missing the concept.A lower reality would ALWAYS be able to be explained in terms of the natrual laws of a higher reality.
c) Who surgested that we have an infinte all encompassing knowlege?
As Atresica's sig says, that would be pretty boring



Quote:
Originally posted by Silverfish

In this case, we can assume that if there is another world outside this one (a if this were all a dream) then it would be no more complex, and our knowlege no more complete, because it would be, in essence, the knowlege (the sum knowlege) that we have in this world.


No, it is easy to see how the world outside THE MATRIX could be more complex. (and know, its an overused example, but is a concept we all understand~It is important not to think of the matrix in terms of the technology, but only in terms of what it does).
Just because yopu "dream" of somethings from the higher reality, does not mean you dream of "everything" from that reality.
-
Also, as I showed above.
I have had dreams where I seemed to have "new" knowlege. But this knowledge was only revelent in the dream.
You can learn many new peices of knowledge in a dream, some you might even remember when you wake up.
eg.
In a dream, you might learn that £10,000,000 worth of gold is hidden under your house.
You have the knowledge of where it is.

But it would be worthless information outside the dream, because you only have the knowledge of:

I Dreamt that I knew where £10,000,000 was hidden under the house.
--
So knowledge can vary between realitys, but it is only revelent in the one you are in.
(Expirance might not be, however).
===

Quote:

Where do you draw the line at consciousness.


In one statement you made the mistake.
The world isn't yes/no black/white.
There isn't a line.
Some things are more conscious then others.
=====

(Your last statements an't worth a reply)
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-03-03 at 17:03.
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Old 2002-02-28, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally posted by {}ghost{}

Same goes to the known paradox of
If I want to get from here to my room's door, I can do this in two halves - one half each time. After passing half of the distance, I can split the remaining distance into 2 halves again - after passing a half of the remaining, I can do that again the what's left right now - and so on.
As you can imagine, I will never get to the door, only really really close, but I would never get to the door because I will always go half way first.
You forgot time.
As you "half" the distance, time taken also "halfs".So as you half the length to the door, the time taken halfs. Till you are moving (1/infinite) length, in (1/infinte) time.
So when you are moving infinitely small lengths, you are also travel though them in 0 time (ie infintely fast).
Thus, you can get to the the door.

===
btw, you are more or less right about the current thoery of light speed, allthough you left out the most important part.
According to the theory C is a relative speed limit,you can never see someone moving faster light compared to something else.
The problem is, everything is moving, so it is impossible for there to be any "absolute" speeds, let alone any absolute speed limits.
-
This is why I'm not happy with the current theory.
I don't see why a partical on one side of a galaxy should "know" that it can't travel faster then one on the other.
Its silly to assign intelgence, yet alone the possiblity of comunicating between the particals.
I mean, surely nothing would move at all, because however something moves at position X, its going to move faster then light compared to Y (that is already moving near-light speed).
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