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  #51  
Old 2012-01-03, 02:33
Lightwing Lightwing is offline
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I'm not going to touch the pedophilia issue because I don't think it will yield any rational discussion. Although I will comment briefly on your logic here:
Only argument from Obras that I'm going to agree with.

Having lived in US most of my life I will say that the cultural norm of suspecting every man of being a pedophile is quite sickening. I have seen a fair amount of parents give me very nasty looks and suddenly remind me that, oh right, I've transition from being a male child (who was overly protected by these parents) to an adult male (who is now approached with unhealthy dose of paranoia). My relatives, most of who have lived longer oversees than in the States, are still shocked by this mindset.

I don't want to veer too far away from the topic regarding the death of the GREAT LEADER Kim Jong-Il, so I'll stop there.
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  #52  
Old 2012-01-03, 16:31
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Let's summarize, because I neither have the time nor the inclination to continue with this "debate."

Quote:
First off, how do you conclude it's my own theory? Based on what evidence?
I'm asking you if there is any scientific evidence to support your claim that 'pacifying' pedophiles with visual media would deter their desire to commit crimes? Since I have never heard of such a thing, and since you seem to find correlation to be the best form of evidence towards this end, I'm going to assume it is just something that you came up with. As opposed to a legitimate psychological study.

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I'd simply ignore the paedophile.
How do you ignore a pedophile in the same room as your son?

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This pretty much summarizes your debate skills. I specifically distinguished between lolicon/shotacon and real child porn. You decided to completely ignore the distinction I made, creating an inconsistency where none was. Which pretty much nullifies the point you were trying to make here.
Since you seem so fond of correlation, I was simply extending your 'theory' and pointing out that if visual media could satiate the desires of pedophiles, why have such a bloodlust against a potential cure?

Note: I'm engaging in sarcasm to point out the problem with your perspective. I still figured you weren't going to deduce that, so I'm just letting you know.

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So actual sexual abuse of minors in Japan has declined roughly since the increased presence of lolicon. Interesting, isn't it?
An interesting correlation. Still not evidence.

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No it's flat out immaturity if you keep negative feelings about a person for actions committed years before and aren't able to get over them.
Also the fact you're unable to debate with someone without getting your reading of a person's statements clouded by your personal opinion about the person whose statements you're reading is also worth mentioning. The proper way to debate is to evaluate the claims and statements regarding of who is making them. That is, judge the claims not the claimer.
I've merely formed my opinions of you based upon your claims and actions. To date, I see no change in your mantra, so why should my viewpoint(s)?

Last edited by Double-J; 2012-01-03 at 16:40. Reason: grammar
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  #53  
Old 2012-01-03, 16:37
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Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Having lived in US most of my life I will say that the cultural norm of suspecting every man of being a pedophile is quite sickening. I have seen a fair amount of parents give me very nasty looks and suddenly remind me that, oh right, I've transition from being a male child (who was overly protected by these parents) to an adult male (who is now approached with unhealthy dose of paranoia). My relatives, most of who have lived longer oversees than in the States, are still shocked by this mindset.
Part of the problem, in my opinion, is the reincorporation of sex offenders into society that is inappropriate when matched with the habitual recidivism rates of convicted pedophiles. I don't disagree with you that there is often much ado about nothing, but as the Penn State and Syracuse scandals have demonstrated, there is also some perverted cult of protection in academia (or so it seems) that rivals the paranoia on the opposite end of the spectrum, treating it as some sort of benign character flaw.

What are the sex offender laws like in your state, L? I know in my area, every year or so a listing (with relevant pictures, information, etc.) is given for convicted sex offenders (read: pedophiles) living in your respective school district. The goal is to increase community awareness, but I think in many ways it has the opposite effect which you've touched on - by pointing out that convicted sex offenders (who have not just been accused or suspected but indeed convicted of molestation in varying degrees) are living in and around school areas. I suspect that the laws may be different in others states but I am honestly unsure.
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  #54  
Old 2012-01-03, 16:54
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Quote:
I'm asking you if there is any scientific evidence to support your claim that 'pacifying' pedophiles with visual media would deter their desire to commit crimes? Since I have never heard of such a thing, and since you seem to find correlation to be the best form of evidence towards this end, I'm going to assume it is just something that you came up with. As opposed to a legitimate psychological study.
I as much as quoted other people stating the same thing. Therefore you can't possibly assume I came up with it.

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How do you ignore a pedophile in the same room as your son?
Read again, I'd ignore and not let him be in the same room as my son.

Quote:
Since you seem so fond of correlation, I was simply extending your 'theory' and pointing out that if visual media could satiate the desires of pedophiles, why have such a bloodlust against a potential cure?

Note: I'm engaging in sarcasm to point out the problem with your perspective. I still figured you weren't going to deduce that, so I'm just letting you know.
Because I distinguish between visual media that don't involve actual crimes in their production versus those that do. Just like I distinguish live action visual media (that is, visual media depicting physical people even if portraying roles) and those that are drawn or animated.
I'm pretty much saying, a photo and a comic strip aren't the same. At the same token, to use terminology you'll actually understand, a cartoon isn't the same as a movie performed by real people.

So to summarize, I'm saying Japanese comics and cartoons depicting minors in sexual situations (or merely in erotic situations) are a potential harmless outlets for people with such attractions. Actual photos and movies made by recording/filming/photographing actual children being abused aren't. Got the distinction now?

Quote:
An interesting correlation. Still not evidence.
Agreed but I'd like to see an evidence of the opposite claim. Namely, of the claim that consumption of lolicon and shotacon has any kind of encouraging or causational effect at all on child sexual abuse. So far, you've provided none.

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I've merely formed my opinions on you based upon your claims and actions. To date, I see no change in your mantra, so why should my viewpoint(s)?
So wait, you have a negative opinion about me because I dare have opinions you don't approve of? So you admit you're discriminating people by opinion? Yes very mature way to judge people.
As for actions, did you see me quoting any of my "friends" in this thread? No I haven't. Whereas I would have done so a few years back. I'd say that is a change. One you chose to ignore, however. I also haven't brought any friends or sockpuppets (or both) into this discussion and I have no will to, yet I would have most likely done so a few years back. Once again a change you chose to ignore.
But I will not change my opinions just because you don't approve of them, sorry. I am legally entitled to have my own opinions and you're being childish and immature by judging me an idiot just because I dare have opinions you don't approve of. But then I seriously doubt my opinions are a problem for you - considering you have next to no problem say when Axx states his own pro-piracy opinion.
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  #55  
Old 2012-01-03, 17:29
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
So wait, you have a negative opinion about me because I dare have opinions you don't approve of? So you admit you're discriminating people by opinion? Yes very mature way to judge people.
As for actions, did you see me quoting any of my "friends" in this thread? No I haven't. Whereas I would have done so a few years back. I'd say that is a change. One you chose to ignore, however. I also haven't brought any friends or sockpuppets (or both) into this discussion and I have no will to, yet I would have most likely done so a few years back. Once again a change you chose to ignore.
But I will not change my opinions just because you don't approve of them, sorry. I am legally entitled to have my own opinions and you're being childish and immature by judging me an idiot just because I dare have opinions you don't approve of. But then I seriously doubt my opinions are a problem for you - considering you have next to no problem say when Axx states his own pro-piracy opinion.
And there it is. I was wondering how long it would take.

No, I'm not judging you by your opinions, opinions are fine. Claims without merit and actions that I find unsavory, on the other hand...
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  #56  
Old 2012-01-03, 17:45
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Quote:
And there it is. I was wondering how long it would take.

No, I'm not judging you by your opinions, opinions are fine. Claims without merit and actions that I find unsavory, on the other hand...
Well whethether my claims have merit or not could be simply a cultural matter. Maybe they look without merit from an US perspective but this doesn't mean they are without merit from the perspective of the culture(s) I grew up and was raised in.

And what unsavory actions have I done in this thread? Sure I did a lot of them a few years back but none in this thread. I've pretty much come to realize that quoting MSN friends and using them and/or sockpuppets to win a discussion is very immature and utterly childish.
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  #57  
Old 2012-01-03, 17:56
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
And what unsavory actions have I done in this thread?
Who said we were confined to this thread?
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  #58  
Old 2012-01-03, 21:21
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Who said we were confined to this thread?
Then tell me, what unsavory actions have I done in the past one year on this forum in general or anywhere in your presence for that matter? Apart for the incident with SpaceGuitarKid's thread for which I apologize.
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  #59  
Old 2012-01-03, 21:42
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Let's summarize, because I neither have the time nor the inclination to continue with this "debate."
And then you continue for three more posts.


Somewhat regarding what Battler is saying.

I more or less don't believe in the idea of a victimless crime. Meaning if something isn't hurting or directly putting someone in harms way then whatever it is, it's the persons own business. Also it pisses me off to no end when bureaucrats run around all happy whenever they "finally regulate" yet another thing.
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  #60  
Old 2012-01-04, 02:22
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
And then you continue for three more posts.
None of any real substance, merely closing remarks. Although I'm perfectly happy and would welcome a continuation the previous discussion on the GOP with Gustav and Axx, or the digression with Lightwing on pedophilia and culture in the U.S.
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  #61  
Old 2012-01-04, 02:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
I more or less don't believe in the idea of a victimless crime. Meaning if something isn't hurting or directly putting someone in harms way then whatever it is, it's the persons own business. Also it pisses me off to no end when bureaucrats run around all happy whenever they "finally regulate" yet another thing.
Well in my opinion, if there's no victim, there's no crime unless it's an action that could result in victims (such as speeding for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
None of any real substance, merely closing remarks. Although I'm perfectly happy and would welcome a continuation the previous discussion on the GOP with Gustav and Axx, or the digression with Lightwing on pedophilia and culture in the U.S.
Care to answer my question about what unsavory actions I have done in the last 1 year or so in your presence apart from the incident of SpaceGuitarKid's thread?
And if you can't list any then you've pretty much nullified your reasons for disliking me.
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  #62  
Old 2012-01-04, 06:47
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What are the sex offender laws like in your state, L? I know in my area, every year or so a listing (with relevant pictures, information, etc.) is given for convicted sex offenders (read: pedophiles) living in your respective school district. The goal is to increase community awareness, but I think in many ways it has the opposite effect which you've touched on - by pointing out that convicted sex offenders (who have not just been accused or suspected but indeed convicted of molestation in varying degrees) are living in and around school areas. I suspect that the laws may be different in others states but I am honestly unsure.
This is where my knowledge of facts and statistics falters. I don't know much about the sex offender lists. I hope that they contain specific information about the crime. What I do detest is the Scarlet Letter effect. You are taking a person out of a correctional facility into the open world yet you mark him for everybody to steer clear from - which is to say that he has not been "corrected."

At the same time, I've known acquaintances who were petted (sexually) by their 19 year old uncle when they were pre-teens and cry at the mere mention of a genital organ. These beasts, who fail to understand that their child victims will grow up into adulthood carrying perpetual pain, fully deserve their due justice. But here I am talking about digression from punishing rapists to punishing exhibitionists, viewers of child pornography, and in some cases, kids who don't know any better.

Among some of the examples I have in mind are:
  • An article about a 14-year-old girl who posted nude pics of herself on MySpace for her boyfriend's benefit. The pictures were discovered by an organization dedicated to fighting Child Pornography. The pressed charges in local court and the 14 year old girl was tried for distribution of child pornography. If convicted, she would be marked as a Sex Offender. That means that when this girl turns 23 and applies for a job, she'll be turned down due to the Sex Offender label during the background check.
  • An article about a 19-year-old who looked at child pornography after downloading a file which he claimed was marked as "Girls Gone Wild." He deleted the content immediately. One year later, FBI knocked on his door and took his computer. The content was indeed deleted, but they dug deep into the HD and retrieved old deleted files (which will persist even after complete reformatting). If I recall correctly, his lawyer convinced him to plead guilty and accept a 3 year jail sentence. Forget the fact that he could be lying about the file name being misleading, or the fact that misleading file names are in fact used to dupe users. Was this man-child sent to a professional for psychiatric evaluation and correction? No, he gets to spend 3 years of his life sharing a cell with wife beaters, and showers with rapists. On top of that, a very nice Sex Offender mark.

I suppose the saying goes "better safe than sorry." What I do know is that when I was 14, I did a research on the subject of kiddie porn during which I came across some seriously disturbing shit that I remember to this day. I then gave a very serious, one hour presentation in my health class on the subject, followed by another one in my Speech class. All of my teachers commended me.

What I didn't know, however - what I did not even suspect - is that it could have resulted in a sex offender mark and perhaps a few years in a juvenile institution. Nobody would give two shits that I had educated 60 something classmates regarding material none of our then adults dared to discuss.
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  #63  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:45
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Indeed, theres a little problem with how broad the term "sex offender" is. Everyone thinks of the very worst thing (ie violent rape), but it can cover a lot of more minor offense's.
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  #64  
Old 2012-01-04, 14:37
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Well we certainly don't have sex offender lists here in EU, at least not here in my country and I never heard of one for Italy either, no idea about eg. UK, though. Although, I remember a case when some Slovenian politician wanted a way to mark paedophiles clearly for people to steer clear of them but clearly stated he had no way of even trying something like that because EU human rights organizations would complain.

However yeah, first off, a 14 year old girl posting nude pictures of herself is IMHO definitely NOT a sexual crime. Especially if the pictures were just nude with no actual sexuality.
But from my knowledge on US law, nude pictures of a minors are legal as long as they do not focus genitalia or depict sexual situations. So I don't see why that girl would be marked as a Sex Offender, provided her pictures were not genitalia-focused or sexual and she's from the US.

As for the 19 year old, it pretty seems to me it goes against presumption of innocence. Sadly, laws in most countries today don't require it to be proven that the person actually intended to consume child pornography and knew what the content was before opening it and so on. That and the FBI came a year later, which means they had a year worth of data on that PC since that particular download, why didn't they see if any of it involves child pornography and so on?
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  #65  
Old 2012-01-04, 16:56
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Care to answer my question about what unsavory actions I have done in the last 1 year or so in your presence apart from the incident of SpaceGuitarKid's thread?
And if you can't list any then you've pretty much nullified your reasons for disliking me.
Does someone have a crush? I'm a little perplexed as to why I'm confined to the last year. I've got years of experience with you, Obras, you know better than that.

And don't bother with a quest for self-improvement on my account, it isn't going to change my mind. Not that you care (or should).

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Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
This is where my knowledge of facts and statistics falters. I don't know much about the sex offender lists. I hope that they contain specific information about the crime. What I do detest is the Scarlet Letter effect. You are taking a person out of a correctional facility into the open world yet you mark him for everybody to steer clear from - which is to say that he has not been "corrected."
The Scarlet Letter effect (rather accurate, L) is somewhat necessary though. IIRC the recidivism rates for convicted sex offenders are among the worst relative to other crimes. There are a few reasons for this. First, victims need not be of sexual age to be sexually abused, thus potentially limiting the ability of the victim to come forward. Second, the known difficulty for victims of sexual crimes to come forward even if they are able, either a direct result of psychological trauma from the action or, alternatively, because of the complicated and oftentimes embarrassing nature of the crime (e.g. incestuous molestation). These two factors make sexual crimes particularly troublesome for law enforcement to identify and prosecute, making post facto monitoring and community awareness paramount.

Lastly, I'd also argue that despite the acknowledgement of sex crimes as horrible violations of personal trust, space, intimacy, etc., and the recognition of rampant recidivism, sex offenders are released back into the general population in a way that does not protect society at large. In this area, sex offenders are 'graded' level 1 - 3, with the third being the most dangerous and the most likely to engage in further criminal behavior. Yet with the exception of slightly more detailed information and in some cases community meetings, there is little repercussions. The very fact that they can still live within range of schools seems to fly in the face of a conviction for child molestation (just for example). I am not up-to-date on either the theories or potential solutions proposed by criminologists and penologists in this area, however living in a state with high profile cases of recidivism, the justice system is not doing enough to protect the victims and society from sex offenders (in my opinion).


Quote:
These beasts, who fail to understand that their child victims will grow up into adulthood carrying perpetual pain, fully deserve their due justice.
I think one issue is deciding whether it is something pathological or, as you say, they "fail to understand," which to me sounds like if they could somehow be shown the metaphorical light. Not saying that's what you meant, so please correct me if that's the case. I believe it is the former. But that's also why I disagree with the pacification and satiation methods proposed earlier in this thread.

Quote:
  • An article about a 14-year-old girl who posted nude pics of herself on MySpace for her boyfriend's benefit. The pictures were discovered by an organization dedicated to fighting Child Pornography. The pressed charges in local court and the 14 year old girl was tried for distribution of child pornography. If convicted, she would be marked as a Sex Offender. That means that when this girl turns 23 and applies for a job, she'll be turned down due to the Sex Offender label during the background check.

Hopefully the court is not completely irrational, though I am continually skeptical of these sort of cases where common sense is thrown out the window (e.g. the 7+ figure award for the woman who sued McDonald's because she spilled hot coffee on herself and it wasn't labeled 'hot').

Quote:
  • An article about a 19-year-old who looked at child pornography after downloading a file which he claimed was marked as "Girls Gone Wild." He deleted the content immediately. One year later, FBI knocked on his door and took his computer. The content was indeed deleted, but they dug deep into the HD and retrieved old deleted files (which will persist even after complete reformatting). If I recall correctly, his lawyer convinced him to plead guilty and accept a 3 year jail sentence. Forget the fact that he could be lying about the file name being misleading, or the fact that misleading file names are in fact used to dupe users. Was this man-child sent to a professional for psychiatric evaluation and correction? No, he gets to spend 3 years of his life sharing a cell with wife beaters, and showers with rapists. On top of that, a very nice Sex Offender mark.

Agreed. Seems ridiculous. I'd be interested to see what evidence the prosecution presented other than the downloaded file. He should never have plead guilty, his lawyer was an idiot.

Quote:
I suppose the saying goes "better safe than sorry." What I do know is that when I was 14, I did a research on the subject of kiddie porn during which I came across some seriously disturbing shit that I remember to this day. I then gave a very serious, one hour presentation in my health class on the subject, followed by another one in my Speech class. All of my teachers commended me.

What I didn't know, however - what I did not even suspect - is that it could have resulted in a sex offender mark and perhaps a few years in a juvenile institution. Nobody would give two shits that I had educated 60 something classmates regarding material none of our then adults dared to discuss.
It's one of the perils of researching these sort of subjects. Although my work was in a different field of law enforcement, especially in interviewing folks, you can run into some less-than-wholesome characters.

I'd like to think your case is the norm (i.e. doing research for a project without repercussions) and the examples you've given are aberrations, but given the lack of common sense in the judicial system these days, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that happens more often than not.

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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Indeed, theres a little problem with how broad the term "sex offender" is. Everyone thinks of the very worst thing (ie violent rape), but it can cover a lot of more minor offense's.
Well again, it goes back to the identification system for reintroduction to society. Sex offender sounds much better than "serial child rapist" but also problematic for a kid who got a spoofed download. Frankly, I think forgoing the political correctness and simply stating the crime would go a long way towards actual awareness and eliminating the generalized nature of such a term.

Last edited by Double-J; 2012-01-04 at 17:07. Reason: Fixed list tags in quote
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  #66  
Old 2012-01-04, 17:29
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Does someone have a crush? I'm a little perplexed as to why I'm confined to the last year. I've got years of experience with you, Obras, you know better than that.
No because judging a person now based on things done over a year ago (and hell even on things done a year ago) is immature. You should judge a person according to how they are at the moment you're judging them.

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And don't bother with a quest for self-improvement on my account, it isn't going to change my mind. Not that you care (or should).
It's not that I care, it's just a tad irritating when I try to have a debate on this forum and some people (you and Axx included) always treat my posts half-assedly. Sure feel free to think whatever you want about me, I just ask you, when debating, to discuss the claims rather than the persion making them.
Sure put in consideration relevant things such as a person's qualifications, expertise and experience on the matter but not a person's behavior a few years back which is completely irrelevant.
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  #67  
Old 2012-01-04, 17:31
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No because judging a person now based on things done over a year ago (and hell even on things done a year ago) is immature. You should judge a person according to how they are at the moment you're judging them.


It's not that I care, it's just a tad irritating when I try to have a debate on this forum and some people (you and Axx included) always treat my posts half-assedly. Sure feel free to think whatever you want about me, I just ask you, when debating, to discuss the claims rather than the persion making them.
Sure put in consideration relevant things such as a person's qualifications, expertise and experience on the matter but not a person's behavior a few years back which is completely irrelevant.
No thanks. Though I want to assure you that any topic dealing with "ass" and involving Axx and myself will receive our utmost erection attention.
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  #68  
Old 2012-01-05, 01:26
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Well again, it goes back to the identification system for reintroduction to society. Sex offender sounds much better than "serial child rapist" but also problematic for a kid who got a spoofed download. Frankly, I think forgoing the political correctness and simply stating the crime would go a long way towards actual awareness and eliminating the generalized nature of such a term.
Id argree with that. It would help protect both ends.
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Old 2012-01-05, 01:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
It's not that I care, it's just a tad irritating when I try to have a debate on this forum and some people (you and Axx included) always treat my posts half-assedly. Sure feel free to think whatever you want about me, I just ask you, when debating, to discuss the claims rather than the persion making them.
I'm not quite sure I could take anyone who says they'd leave their child in the same room as viewers of cartoon child pornography seriously. While previously I may have seen you as being somewhat out of touch, immature and intellectually lacking, I now view you as being either extremely naive at best, or absolute scum at worst. Reading what you've posted in this thread has left me feeling quite sick in the stomach.

Once I've chosen to raise children of my own, I most certainly wouldn't let any adult spend time alone with them, let alone the sick bastards you've described. Children are defenseless and susceptible to manipulation. As lightwing pointed out, abuse suffered during childhood could have profound consequences on their future. Parents and child carers have a duty to protect them, one that's importance comes above all else in this world.

I find your claims to be ridiculous, your sources questionable, and your method of debate childish. How many straight men here have sought out, collected and repetitively viewed homosexual material for pleasure? The same logic applies to the garbage you are defending, and quite clearly viewing.

Do you really think the opinions of a handful of claims by unqualified speakers counts as evidence? Do you even know what qualifies as a source in the "scientific community"?

I am surprised by the restraint shown towards you in this particular thread on this particular subject. Tone it down, better yet, mute it.
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  #70  
Old 2012-01-05, 03:00
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Quote:
I'm not quite sure I could take anyone who says they'd leave their child in the same room as viewers of cartoon child pornography seriously. While previously I may have seen you as being somewhat out of touch, immature and intellectually lacking, I now view you as being either extremely naive at best, or absolute scum at worst. Reading what you've posted in this thread has left me feeling quite sick in the stomach.
First off, when I did specifically state I'd leave them in the same room with an adult that reads lolicon or shotacon. I based my statement on the fact most consumers of lolicon or shotacon are themselves underage teenagers. You were the one implying an adult here. And in any case I was deliberately exaggerating there. Truth is, I can't even judge what I'd do because I've never had a child before and quite some time will pass before I have one and I don't feel even remotely ready for having one at this moment; but that question was stupid in and of itself and with no real relevance to the point I was making so I deliberately responded with a half-assed exaggeration.

Let me summarize your other points now. So by your logic, anyone who ever watches, reads or otherwise enjoys any kind of story involving illegal acts is automatically a criminal. Now answer me, how is this different from the generalizations that all muslims are terrorists or all Germans are Nazis? In my view, there's none.

Quote:
How many straight men here have sought out, collected and repetitively viewed homosexual material for pleasure?
Sought out or collected no idea, but I used to follow quite a few TV shows about homosexual relationships. "Queer as Folk" and "The L Word" to name two. The former involved male homosexuality too. Am I gay? No I am NOT. But I still enjoyed the stories set forth by those series, and that without having fealt a single ounce of sexual pleasure when a gay sexual scene occurred.

Quote:
I find your claims to be ridiculous,
I do admit some of them are ridiculous.

Quote:
your sources questionable,
Maybe, I never said my sources were perfect.

Quote:
and your method of debate childish.
I perfectly agree my method of debate is childish. Yours isn't much better though. At least if we count in your ad hominem attacks and generalizations. Thing is, I'd be perfectly willing to improve my debate skills if you guys showed the will to help me with that instead of wasting your time overreacting like children. And yes I often make controversial statements - address them, point them out and discuss them until a compromise is reached. Works much better than insulting.

Quote:
Do you really think the opinions of a handful of claims by unqualified speakers counts as evidence? Do you even know what qualifies as a source in the "scientific community"?
Please read the thread again. I never stated I used them as evidence. I only used them to point out at Double-J that I wasn't the only one thinking in a certain way thus that his presumption that my way of thinking is something I made up, is wrong.
The only part of it which I used as evidence is the part of statistics between the increase of lolicon/shotacon in Japan and a decrease in paedophilia. And I admit it's nothing reliable there. Problem is though, to find reliable sources for this kind of thing, I'd need to look for sources in Japanese and my Japanese is bad. And not many sources that support my point of view are in English.

But let's quote a scholarly source (Fuller) for once:
http://yestofreedom.org/files/public...l_Argument.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller
V CONCLUSION
For a law to qualify as a law, it must fulfil the eight requirements set out in the “internal
morality of law” in Fuller's The Morality of Law. Censorship law, in the form of a ban on certain forms of art, potentially fails clarity, and will fail observability and generality. These requirements are too stringent for the indefinite and diverse nature of art. In the unlikely event that there is a law that bans certain forms of art which satisfies these requirements, it is likely to be either full of loopholes and fail to enforce anything at all or so complex and specific that it will only be able to find extremely specific forms of art illegal. If there were to be a law censoring art on the basis that it depicts “children” in sexual situations, on this basis many works seen as masterpieces could be banned by this legislation as it attempts to legislate the use of “children” in fiction. It is not a far
leap from art to written works as both are fiction. Once this ban affects classic literature, our rich literary history is under threat. To prevent this, any censorship on art should be opposed before it reaches that depth, perhaps even more so than non fiction.
This is exactly what I was making a point about. You start by banning lolicon and shotacon, then next on line is coming of age cinema, then Vladimir Nabokov's books, then in the end you end up banning Romeo and Juliet because it involves early teens in a romantic relationship (not sure if there's any sexual situation in there or not, never read it fully). Now let me bold this: So it comes quite quickly from banning something that borders on obscene from banning something that's completely harmless and a historical masterpiece. Where do you draw the line?

Thing is, you and Double-J, as well as a lot of people in the US, say pretty much anything that depicts a minor in a sexual situation should indiscriminately be banned regardless of whether it has any value or not. And I'm saying this makes it difficult to draw the line and can end up banning things that the vast majority of people in the world deem not only acceptable but historical masterpieces. Things like Romeo and Juliet or most Ancient Greek myths (in which pederasty, that is, homosexual sexual relationships with young boys, isn't exactly unheard of). But also masterpieces not everyone considers a masterpiece, namely the vast wealth of European century coming of age cinema. Which BTW is still legal basically everywhere in the Western world (US included) and I haven't heard of any intention to ban it. In fact, some of said coming of age cinema comes even from Hollywood - the movie "Thirteen" anyone?
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Last edited by Battler; 2012-01-05 at 03:23.
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  #71  
Old 2012-01-05, 03:16
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So.... too bad about great leader Kim Jong-Il, eh..?
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  #72  
Old 2012-01-05, 13:49
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  #73  
Old 2012-01-05, 15:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axx
intellectually lacking,
Well, have you ever discussed stuff I actually have some proper knowledge in with me? No. We've only ever discussed stuff I actually never had proper knowledge in. To jduge me intellectually lacking in general solely based on that is stupid, to say the least.

BTW, for anyone who may think I support paedophilia - you know, when I was 14, I was approached by an old gay pedo pervert who wanted to give me a blowjob. I knew enough to recognized what he wanted from me and say no, twice, and he stopped.

So please don't lecture me on paedophiles and so on. I thing, given the above-mentioned experience, I know pretty much better than you what a paedophile is.

Quote:
How many straight men here have sought out, collected and repetitively viewed homosexual material for pleasure? The same logic applies to the garbage you are defending, and quite clearly viewing.
Apart from what I mentioned in the previous post, let me ask this as well: what kind of evidence do you have that not many heterosexual men enjoy good homosexual stories? Let's just point at the Brokeback Mountain movie or the Queer as Folk TV show. They had an immense success and popularity, now do you really want me believe each and every person who's seen them is a homosexual?

And mind you, I'm not defending lolicon or shotacon per se, I'm defending their legality because banning something just because it MIGHT cause abuse not only goes against presumption of innocence but even opens the doors for further bans.
And that's happening already. In Australia, they pretty much banned sexual depictions of small-breasted women because they "could easily be taken for children". This also means the vast majority of Asian (Japanese included) pornography is banned as the vast majority of Asian women are small-breasted.
What will be next? Requiring all small-breasted women to get breast implants because otherwise they "resemble children too much"? Forbidding sexual intercourse with small-breasted women because they "resemble children too much" and arresting anyone who does it for "sexual abuse of a person resembling a minor"? Get real please.

Also what neither you nor your good friend Double-J seem to have gotten here is that I was talking about lolicon and shotacon, not lolicon and shotacon hentai specifically. So I pretty much included all the manga etc. that while they do depict minors in sexual relations, they do NOT graphically show intercourse at all but merely hint at it. Or hell all those stories in which while there's a character sexually attracted to a minor, intercourse doesn't happen at all.
So pretty much no different to Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita where while the main character is attracted to Lolita (the 12 year old girl title character), sexual intercourse never occurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
It is also commonly used when referring to lolicon manga or lolicon anime, a genre of manga and anime wherein childlike female characters are often depicted in an erotic manner, in an art style reminiscent of the shōjo manga (girls' comics) style. Outside Japan, "lolicon" is in less common usage and usually refers to the genre.
This says everything. The fact you guys presumed I only meant specifically the ones that graphically depict the intercourse, shows everything.
Sure I said "depict minors in sexual situations" but that's a bit different from "graphically depict minors in sexual intercourse". It's you and Double-J that assumed graphical depictions of sexual intercourse involving minors. Then I'm the one called the pervert here.
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  #74  
Old 2012-01-05, 16:31
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
This is exactly what I was making a point about. You start by banning lolicon and shotacon, then next on line is coming of age cinema, then Vladimir Nabokov's books, then in the end you end up banning Romeo and Juliet because it involves early teens in a romantic relationship (not sure if there's any sexual situation in there or not, never read it fully). Now let me bold this: So it comes quite quickly from banning something that borders on obscene from banning something that's completely harmless and a historical masterpiece. Where do you draw the line?
Child pornography is and has been outlawed. I have yet to see the slippery slope you're referring to, or how you could seriously believe that this is the logical course of events. This is especially in contemporary society where as you yourself are noting that homosexuality has become prevalent on Western television stations (not just cable, either). Hell, even at the most McCarthyian of the McCarthyian era, most people saw him for what he was: a loudmouth, drunken asshole. Somehow I doubt that the subject matter at hand is at the precipice of crushing liberty and embracing censorship of true artforms.

Also, given your apparent interest in Western legal systems and child pornography, you may want to look at Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition (2002).

Quote:
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So.... too bad about great leader Kim Jong-Il, eh..?
I dated a girl named Kim once. I wonder if they're related?
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  #75  
Old 2012-01-05, 16:47
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There are things that annoy me a lot though (regarding forms of censorship):

These are just examples, some of many.

1: People changing the lyrics of "Imagine" from "no religion too" to "one religion too" or omitting the verse entirely.

2: A reedition of Tom Sawyer where every word "nigger" has been replaced.

3: Was playing the US guitar hero lately and the word "wiskey" is erased from "American Pie".

4: The US version of the witcher had to have the breasts shown in the game covered.

5: Some TV station edited out shower scenes where men and women showered together from Starship Troopers.

And there's loads more. There's something extremely annoying in someone changing someone elses artwork, or forcing them to change it to conform to some twisted social norm no sane person should even remotely care about.
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