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  #76  
Old 2012-01-05, 17:03
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Child pornography is and has been outlawed..
photos or drawings? what about CG?
books?
How much has to be showen to be illegal? (vs merely infered or possibly suggested).

We can all clearly think of things that are certainly wrong - specificly anything that involves a real child in the creation of the media and is intended for sexual pleasure. No one is going to argue with that clear cut case.

But when the creation itself doesnt cause harm (ie, its all fictional in some way), even defining "Child pornography" seems a very hard thing to do. I dont think there is a clear cut line, only a judgement of intention and that might well overstep the line depending on the wimms or upbringing of the purson judgeing.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24...andleys-trial/
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  #77  
Old 2012-01-05, 17:26
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
There are things that annoy me a lot though (regarding forms of censorship):

These are just examples, some of many.

1: People changing the lyrics of "Imagine" from "no religion too" to "one religion too" or omitting the verse entirely.

2: A reedition of Tom Sawyer where every word "nigger" has been replaced.

3: Was playing the US guitar hero lately and the word "wiskey" is erased from "American Pie".

4: The US version of the witcher had to have the breasts shown in the game covered.

5: Some TV station edited out shower scenes where men and women showered together from Starship Troopers.

And there's loads more. There's something extremely annoying in someone changing someone elses artwork, or forcing them to change it to conform to some twisted social norm no sane person should even remotely care about.
Agreed. Although I'm generally annoyed when anyone feels the need to co-opt lyrics for a song and change/adapt them to their own purpose.
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  #78  
Old 2012-01-05, 17:57
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
photos or drawings? what about CG?
books?
How much has to be showen to be illegal? (vs merely infered or possibly suggested).
Frankly, if we where to follow that same logic (of depicting things that are illegal), then films in which people steal or kill or smoke pot or do anything that is illegal in the real world would also be illegal.

I don't think there's much of a case here, depictions of illegal acts can in no way be compared to the real crimes.

There was this Polish film where a guy goes to heaven and is being trialed as a murderer, when in fact he was just an actor playing a role of a murderer in a play, and has a hard way of explaining what acting and fiction is.
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  #79  
Old 2012-01-05, 18:45
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Finally, Jasiek and Darkflame said in short and concise word here what I've been tried to say for ages with long posts.

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Child pornography is and has been outlawed. I have yet to see the slippery slope you're referring to, or how you could seriously believe that this is the logical course of events. This is especially in contemporary society where as you yourself are noting that homosexuality has become prevalent on Western television stations (not just cable, either). Hell, even at the most McCarthyian of the McCarthyian era, most people saw him for what he was: a loudmouth, drunken asshole. Somehow I doubt that the subject matter at hand is at the precipice of crushing liberty and embracing censorship of true artforms.

Also, given your apparent interest in Western legal systems and child pornography, you may want to look at Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition (2002).
Um, pretty much I did point out the direction it's going to. Australia has already banned sexual depictions of all small-breasted (adult) women, because they "might be construed to resemble children". What will be next?
There's for one a whole wealth of European (and American too, mind you) coming of age cinema that risks being banned too.
And finally, artworks such as Michelangelo's David might get banned too just because they depict a naked young boy. Someone could pretty easily use the excuse that "its display can cause an increase of paedophilia because paedophiles might masturbate to it" to get it banned, which would then become "everyone who likes Michelangelo's David is a gay paedophile".

THAT is the slipper slope I'm talking about here. Because the tendency is to ban more and more things that MIGHT cause child sexual abuse. And there's a lot things for which it might be said that they MIGHT titillate paedophiles. What do you ban and what do you not ban? Where do you draw the line?

With lolicon and shotacon, a lot of stories written and drawn in Japan that include minors in sexual relationships are censored or even banned in US, regardless of whether there's any graphical sex in or not. And if it were just confined to the stuff being banned in US, I wouldn't have a concern.
But just a few years ago an US feminist group complained about lolicon and shotacon and demanded Japan ban them, which led to most Japanese erotic visual novel and manga companies blocking access to their sites for foreigners, as they stated, to protect Japanese culture from outsiders trying to change it.
If the US simply had it laws and let other countries make theirs however they wanted it, there wouldn't be an issue. The US doesn't. Quite a few cables on Wikileaks show US officials pressuring other countries to adopt US-stile legislation on piracy and other stuff under threat of sanctions or whatever. THAT is what bothers me.
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  #80  
Old 2012-01-05, 18:59
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Um, pretty much I did point out the direction it's going to. Australia has already banned sexual depictions of all small-breasted (adult) women, because they "might be construed to resemble children". What will be next?
There's for one a whole wealth of European (and American too, mind you) coming of age cinema that risks being banned too.
And finally, artworks such as Michelangelo's David might get banned too just because they depict a naked young boy. Someone could pretty easily use the excuse that "its display can cause an increase of paedophilia because paedophiles might masturbate to it" to get it banned, which would then become "everyone who likes Michelangelo's David is a gay paedophile".
No matter how much you say it, it doesn't make it true. FYI.

They're not banning "David," or Romeo and Juliet, or Traffic.
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  #81  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
photos or drawings? what about CG?
books?
How much has to be showen to be illegal? (vs merely infered or possibly suggested).

We can all clearly think of things that are certainly wrong - specificly anything that involves a real child in the creation of the media and is intended for sexual pleasure. No one is going to argue with that clear cut case.

But when the creation itself doesnt cause harm (ie, its all fictional in some way), even defining "Child pornography" seems a very hard thing to do. I dont think there is a clear cut line, only a judgement of intention and that might well overstep the line depending on the wimms or upbringing of the purson judgeing.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24...andleys-trial/
Good post, and good link too. Nice to see there's an entire organization in the US that's fighting to stop the ban on such comics. It pretty much shows how I'm hardly the only person to think like that.

Quote:
We can all clearly think of things that are certainly wrong - specificly anything that involves a real child in the creation of the media and is intended for sexual pleasure. No one is going to argue with that clear cut case."
I said that as well. When something involves a real child getting abused in its production, I'm not only in favor of its ban, I'm pretty much in favor of even stricter punishments for its not only production but even mere consumption.

Quote:
But when the creation itself doesnt cause harm (ie, its all fictional in some way), even defining "Child pornography" seems a very hard thing to do. I dont think there is a clear cut line, only a judgement of intention and that might well overstep the line depending on the wimms or upbringing of the purson judgeing.
Also what I was saying, and what both Double-J and Axx repealed. With such bans on material that doesn't involve real children in its production, where do you draw the lines? I do understand Double-J's and Axx's reason for banning the specific variant of lolicon and sh otacon with graphic depictions of sex involving minors, but thing is people are already moving from that to banning even more harmless thing. Again I must point at Australia's ban on sexual depictions of small-breasted women. Again I ask, what will be next?

Man Darkflame, I wish I had your abilities to express my points. Maybe then this whole war that arose in this thread would have been avoided.
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  #82  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
No matter how much you say it, it doesn't make it true. FYI.

They're not banning "David," or Romeo and Juliet, or Traffic.
They're not banning them now, but who knows what will happen in the future. Mind you, they weren't banning lolicon or shotacon either 20 years ago, in fact in 1996 such a ban was even ruled as unconstitutional. Then in 2003, the ban suddenly became fully constitutional and alright. So things and attitude change. What might be laughed off as ridiculously dystopian now, might become normal 20 years in the future.
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  #83  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:09
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Good post, and good link too. Nice to see there's an entire organization in the US that's fighting to stop the ban on such comics. It pretty much shows how I'm hardly the only person to think like that
FWIW, he apparently plead guilty:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ession-charges


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Again I ask, what will be next?
I hope it isn't wheelchair porn. Russell Brand really gets off to it. Or so I hear.
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  #84  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:14
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
So things and attitude change. What might be laughed off as ridiculously dystopian now, might become normal 20 years in the future.
Welcome to history.
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  #85  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:15
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Quote:
FWIW, he apparently plead guilty:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ession-charges
Well, what were his chances not to be ruled guilty anyway?

In any case, I just love the US reporting. "Drawings of children being sexually abused." I'd laugh if said drawings (presumarbly referring to manga here) were actually of children having sex with other children. It would raise an interesting question - do we accuse a child of statutory rape for having had sex with another child of his/her age?

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I hope it isn't wheelchair porn. Russell Brand really gets off to it. Or so I hear.
Well I can bet you next thing, they'll outlaw having sex with small-breasted women because they'll rule that an attraction in small-breasted women could mean an attraction in children.
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  #86  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:16
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Welcome to history.
Indeed. But you're the one who claimed such changes aren't possible. I pretty much said they are possible and that that's why we need to pay attention at what laws we pass/vote for.
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  #87  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Well, what were his chances not to be ruled guilty anyway?
Or he could, considering his legal support, stand up for his convictions and try to set a precedent. It wouldn't be, pardon the pun, unprecedented.


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In any case, I just love the US reporting. "Drawings of children being sexually abused."
Do you know what the actual images in question were?

Quote:
do we accuse a child of statutory rape for having had sex with another child of his/her age?
FYI, the answer is yes, and is relatively commonplace. Though predominantly this refers to cases involving older teenagers.

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Well I can bet you next thing, they'll outlaw having sex with small-breasted women because they'll rule that an attraction in small-breasted women could mean an attraction in children.
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  #88  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:21
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Indeed. But you're the one who claimed such changes aren't possible. I pretty much said they are possible and that that's why we need to pay attention at what laws we pass/vote for.
And I'm pointing out to you, just as a highlight, when conservative (although one could argue the SC is always conservative, relatively speaking, to some degree; I would disagree) court like Rehnquists acknowledges the issues over censorship of said media, I have the feeling that by and large the changes you're looking to are highly unlikely.
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  #89  
Old 2012-01-05, 19:42
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Or he could, considering his legal support, stand up for his convictions and try to set a precedent. It wouldn't be, pardon the pun, unprecedented.
Yes and possibly face years of legal nightmare. No offense, neither of us has been in his shoes or otherwise knows what he went through.

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Do you know what the actual images in question were?
No, none of us do. I'm just saying the media should report what kind of images they were instead of making such a generalized description.

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FYI, the answer is yes, and is relatively commonplace. Though predominantly this refers to cases involving older teenagers.
Really? A 12 year old having sex with another 12 year old is considered statutory rape in the US? God... where have we ended up. Ah well, I guess another influence of Christian conservativism which can't accept that puberty brings with itself sexuality too. What will be next? Banning masturbation for every person under the age of consent?

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Well they did outlaw sexual depictions of small-breasted women in Australia on the argument that they "could be construed as resembling minors". It's not such a stretch that a ban on sexual depictions evolves into an outright ban on having sex with small-breasted women at all.

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And I'm pointing out to you, just as a highlight, when conservative (although one could argue the SC is always conservative, relatively speaking, to some degree; I would disagree) court like Rehnquists acknowledges the issues over censorship of said media, I have the feeling that by and large the changes you're looking to are highly unlikely.
Well, Germans in the 1920's would have also thought it impossible to ever have laws that classify one nation as undermen and prescribe its systematic extermination. Yet 10 years later, that did happen. Granted, a ban like the one I'm warning against is nothing compared to that but my point is just, never say never.
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  #90  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:04
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Anyway, please read this:
http://comipress.com/special/miscell...-viewing-manga

It says what I want to say pretty well.
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  #91  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:14
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Yes and possibly face years of legal nightmare. No offense, neither of us has been in his shoes or otherwise knows what he went through.
They are called principles.

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No, none of us do. I'm just saying the media should report what kind of images they were instead of making such a generalized description.
If the media doesn't know, how can they report anything but a generalization?


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Really? A 12 year old having sex with another 12 year old is considered statutory rape in the US? God... where have we ended up. Ah well, I guess another influence of Christian conservativism which can't accept that puberty brings with itself sexuality too. What will be next? Banning masturbation for every person under the age of consent?
Since you clearly didn't read what I said, it is typically involved with older teenagers, particularly in cases where paternity is in dispute. I'm not aware (offhand) of any cases of 12-year-olds being charged with statutory rape.

I'm not sure what Christian "conservativism" is, but I doubt it encourages the pacification of pedophiles and leaving your kid in a room with one. Just saying.

Quote:
Well they did outlaw sexual depictions of small-breasted women in Australia on the argument that they "could be construed as resembling minors". It's not such a stretch that a ban on sexual depictions evolves into an outright ban on having sex with small-breasted women at all.
It's a stretch if you've got at least half a brain.

Quote:
Well, Germans in the 1920's would have also thought it impossible to ever have laws that classify one nation as undermen and prescribe its systematic extermination. Yet 10 years later, that did happen. Granted, a ban like the one I'm warning against is nothing compared to that but my point is just, never say never.
We've even got Godwin's Law in this thread! Kim Jung-Il is great indeed.
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  #92  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:15
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It says what I want to say pretty well.
So much for self-improvement.
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  #93  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:24
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Anyway, please read this:
http://comipress.com/special/miscell...-viewing-manga

It says what I want to say pretty well.
can't believe the dude's name is "Whorely" XD
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  #94  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:27
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They are called principles.
Well each has their own principles.

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If the media doesn't know, how can they report anything but a generalization?
Then inform the media better.

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Since you clearly didn't read what I said, it is typically involved with older teenagers, particularly in cases where paternity is in dispute. I'm not aware (offhand) of any cases of 12-year-olds being charged with statutory rape.

I'm not sure what Christian "conservativism" is, but I doubt it encourages the pacification of pedophiles and leaving your kid in a room with one. Just saying.
Ah true, sorry for misreading them.
"Pacification of paedophiles" - true, you do have a point with that. I've changed my argument since. Not everyone reading a lolicon or shotacon story (not even necessarily one with graphic sexual scenes) is a paedophile. Some read it just for the story.
"Leaving your kid in a room with one." - LOL, once again bringing up my deliberate exaggeration which I've later explained and told what I truly think to that. No, I would NOT leave my kid in the same room with anyone (paedophile or not). I know how dangerous paedophiles are, I told my experience with one already.

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It's a stretch if you've got at least half a brain.
Sure maybe, but as I said the laws get stricter and stricter as time goes, we don't know what will be outlawed next. I just put an example.

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So much for self-improvement.
At least I'm trying. I just need a good teacher to teach me how to debate properly.
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  #95  
Old 2012-01-05, 20:50
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
photos or drawings? what about CG?
books?
How much has to be showen to be illegal? (vs merely infered or possibly suggested).

We can all clearly think of things that are certainly wrong - specificly anything that involves a real child in the creation of the media and is intended for sexual pleasure. No one is going to argue with that clear cut case.

But when the creation itself doesnt cause harm (ie, its all fictional in some way), even defining "Child pornography" seems a very hard thing to do. I dont think there is a clear cut line, only a judgement of intention and that might well overstep the line depending on the wimms or upbringing of the purson judgeing.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24...andleys-trial/

That article was published in 2008. The man plead guilty and got sentenced 6 months in prison. Good luck finding a job now.

Meanwhile, how many people went to see the SAW films in glorious 3D live-action portrayal of actors simulating live disembowlement?
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  #96  
Old 2012-01-06, 01:52
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Originally Posted by Axx View Post
I'm not quite sure I could take anyone who says they'd leave their child in the same room as viewers of cartoon child pornography seriously.
This is the one point I'll side with Obras on.

Adult cartoon pornography is fake. Child cartoon pornography is fake. Both cases depict fictional imagery and both are obscene.

My arguement is not as to which one is more obscene, but that neither evokes any more sexually abusive behavior than the other. This is a matter of preferrence.

Double-J, for example, perfers you as his ultimate sex partner, but that doesn't mean that he's going to rape you when you two are alone in the same room.

[Goes to check with Double-J if this is true]

[All jokes aside, I'm serious regarding the first 3 lines]
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  #97  
Old 2012-01-06, 15:01
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I think the saw movies are a good analogy - you cant say all people watching that stuff secretly want to murder people in gross ways.
So why is it people watching disturbing animated sexual stuff are assumed to want to do it themselves?

God knows why anyone would want to watch either (imho), but I dont see any prooved cause and effect here.
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  #98  
Old 2012-01-06, 15:26
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but I dont see any prooved cause and effect here.
It's typical mediatic FUD, akin to the "piracy causes tons of loss to economy" and "all muslims are terrorists" ones. Mediatic FUD designed to garner the people's support for the most controversial laws.
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  #99  
Old 2012-01-06, 20:26
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This is the one point I'll side with Obras on.

Adult cartoon pornography is fake. Child cartoon pornography is fake. Both cases depict fictional imagery and both are obscene.
As I stated previously, I wouldn't let any adult (or teen) sit with my child on his/her own. To start off with, no man knows what secrets another man's heart holds. Most children abused suffer at the hands of a close relative, a loved one so to speak, so how about if that blood bond does not exist.

That is compounded by the fact that children are easily manipulated into remaining silent, and it would be quite difficult to determine that your child is being abused before it is too late.

That a man would view such material is in itself quite obscene, common term 'wierdo' comes to mind. But I do have to strongly disagree.

It's not that anyone is hurt in the production of such materials per say, its that it is quite obviously a substitute for more illicit illegal material, and an expression of a real fantasy expressed through artistic renditions. In brief, viewers of such material most likely do have pedophile tendencies, and therefore it would be wholly irresponsible, perhaps criminal, to leave one's child in their care.

That really is just common sense from where I'm standing.
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  #100  
Old 2012-01-06, 20:34
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I think the saw movies are a good analogy - you cant say all people watching that stuff secretly want to murder people in gross ways.
So why is it people watching disturbing animated sexual stuff are assumed to want to do it themselves?

God knows why anyone would want to watch either (imho), but I dont see any prooved cause and effect here.
Its the reason for watching. I did quite clearly state that people who seek out such material for pleasure are the one's I would be weary of.

If someone were to collect ogrish videos, and would find viewing them/the act of murder pleasurable, then partaking in such an act would be the next step.

Of course this is not always the case, but part of being an adult is to take precautions based on probabilities. There is a study on pedophiles somewhere about the web (google it, i'm at work so I cant) that found that 40-50% of pedophiles had actively viewed and collected cartoon child pornography, which is quite a significant. Imagine then if we were to poll non-pedophiles what the percentage would be (<5%, <2% ?).
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