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  #76  
Old 2008-06-02, 12:56
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I pretty much think you can play BG&E on the PC with any pad you want.

And btw I just ran it on my newest (fifth I think...) config since the first time I ran it and it's still smooth and ok. Only problem I had with it it's I had to commit it to one CPU core only, couse the gfx was running too fast...

Works in my native 1280x1024 with AA at it's fullest and everything on max and I have yet to see any graphical glitch.

Your computers are weird.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Estranged View Post
About Ancel ruining his games...
I'd like to mention that Rayman 3 and Rayman RR were done by a completely different team than Rayman 2, which can be easily seen when browsing through the credits. Yes, Ancel's name stands behind the games, but in the meantime he was busy with creating other things...
This is kind of comforting. Although I really hope the movie wasn't an ingame one. In the original game every sequence like that was a part of the story and a part of the action, this one is just like a "feature", like the movies in Rayman3, and it kind of worries me.
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  #77  
Old 2008-06-02, 16:12
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I've got it on my MBP and I too had to disable it from using two cores. 1440x900, full frame rate.
I can't use AA on mine otherwise the graphics are chewed up and it ran very slow at the beginning lighthouse scene (That shouldn't be a spoiler for those who haven't played it?) and ran ok for the next scene.
Then turned off AA and set the shadows to low and now it runs perfectly...
No eye candy!

Love the gameplay and the storyline all though!
But I kinda missed half the plot (because the TV was up a little too loud and couldn't find my headphones) but I quickly got the hang of it.
Very addictive - but I have to go to bed now because I have Tafe tomorrow and have to get up at 6:30. (It's 12 right now)
Should give this to my cousins. They loved LBA, I know they'll love this.

Well gtg to bed.
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  #78  
Old 2008-06-03, 18:12
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If it makes anybody feel any better, the same composer for BGE will be working on the sequel.
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  #79  
Old 2008-06-03, 18:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
I pretty much think you can play BG&E on the PC with any pad you want.
and even if it doesn't support it, you can still make the control pad act as a keyboard.
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  #80  
Old 2008-06-03, 18:36
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the button-featured sewer rat cannot be beaten by a button-featured croissant :P but it's funnier
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  #81  
Old 2008-06-03, 18:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
If it makes anybody feel any better, the same composer for BGE will be working on the sequel.
Of course it does, music plays a big part to atmosphere.

Quote:
and even if it doesn't support it, you can still make the control pad act as a keyboard.
One word;
Analogue.

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Well I disagree, and seriously, "trust me on this"...
A succesfull, high quality lo-poly model where much of the detail is faked by texturing and shadowing "baked" into the texture is a demanding work.

In the case of a model like this all the detail is wich is not "texture" is modelled, wich might be a bit more time consuming but is less demanding on the modeller side, couse he's just following the concept art he is given. With the dinamic shadows he doesn't need to bake in the shadowing.

A few corrections, a normal map drawn in photoshop or some other program and you're ready to go.

Look, a model such as this takes more time to make then the ones seen in BG&E1.
There really is no two ways about it. Ask any 3D Artist.

This model has more detail in both mesh and shaders. (despite the fact shadows can be calculated real time)

Thats not to say its easy making good low poly models...far from it.
Knowing the right detail to put in is both a technical and artistic skill.I wouldnt be supprised if low-polygon modelers of high quality are a dyeing bread, in fact.
But that dosnt mean it isnt quicker, merely that less people (now) can do it well.
Something can take less skill, but still be more work, and thus more cost.

Under your logic then, if you really think this sort of graphics is cheaper....why have game production costs sky-rocketed over the last decade? The size of production teams has increased hugely.

It sure arnt because games are getting longer.

Quote:
The model was probably made as lo-poly anwyays, and then subdivided wich is an automatic process... duh. A few corrections, a normal map drawn in photoshop or some other program and you're ready to go.
You mean it was subdivided and smoothed

That adds no detail, and really has nothing to do with the quanity of work it takes. All it does is make stuff rounder.

Speaking as a 3D Artist, your attitude is staggering.

You do know that making a normal map in photoshop isnt some magic quick process?
The detail either has to be modeled...which takes time, and you can convert it to a normal map and use it on a low-poly mesh. (techique made famous by Doom3).
OR you can paint the detail in a photoapp directly, which normaly takes a lot more skill and time.

In many case's you do both, as some techique suits some stuff better then others.

There is no shortcuts.
There is no magic way to get detail out of the imagination/concept art and onto the page rather then working to put it there. You have tools and techiques to help, but more detail = more time.

(of course, the one exception is when you are modeling something from live...in which case you can use photographs &or 3D scanning as a base for your meshs and textures)
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2008-06-03 at 20:07.
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  #82  
Old 2008-06-03, 19:12
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I'll agree on one thing: from personal experience, making hyper realistic characters (modeling & texturing) is more time consuming than the kind of models we saw in BGE.

Once again though, I'm willing to wait and see more of what's to come. BGE 1's teaser trailer was not spectacular either.
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  #83  
Old 2008-06-03, 23:36
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Speaking as a 3D Artist, your attitude is staggering.
Probably becouse I do not use 3DS max. It's too complicated, too pumped up with useless stuff that you do not need most of the time. Funny how people centered around it have a similar jargon.

Anyway, there's also sculpting tools, even if they did model all the wrinkles, It's not as exhausting as you make it sound. There is so much tools and presets out there now it looks kind of easier to achieve greater results then a few years ago, you do not need artists of the same caliber you needed before to give the game quality.

I'd like to point out that Valve for instance is still an approx. 30 people team . And they did use all the shizzles and whizzles and watchamaycallits you could think of. Incidentally games still take like a year or two to make, and I really didn't notice a loss in gaming time.

I think games did not become bloated with people becouse they are so much harder to do, I think they just became a profitable business, brought in more cash and most companies start to forcefully "grow" on that.

Anyway, whether you are right, or I am right is of no importance. Games always had a certain standard they had to keep up to sell. No company will risk making a graphically substandard game just to please a few percent of the fans, becouse they cannot afford gambling like this.
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  #84  
Old 2008-06-08, 01:23
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Regardless of tools or software it takes longer.
Of course you use ZBrush and the like for nice muscles and face detail (its fun), but it still takes time.
Also, Improvements in tools also help low-poly modeling too.

Its true presets can help. Premade stuff in general, in fact.
But it will get quite boring if so many games have obviously the same base stuff.

Procedrals are the way forward for that end,imo, quick and unique once the effort is put into code. For instance, We should have tools to "paint a wall" with that wall being unique automaticaly, with dents and dert and weeds all positioned as you would expect.

But that isnt being done at the moment. Even the best quality games just model then tile stuff.

Quote:
Incidentally games still take like a year or two to make, and I really didn't notice a loss in gaming time.
More staff.
Frequently lots of temps too.

Quote:
I think games did not become bloated with people becouse they are so much harder to do, I think they just became a profitable business, brought in more cash and most companies start to forcefully "grow" on that.
Your getting developers mixed up with publishers I think.
Publishers certainly grew, swallowing company's and becoming top-heavy bureaucratic marketing-lead entity thanks to gaming becoming big business.

But developers have grown because to keep up with the demand for detailed graphics takes a lot more staff.
The extra people arnt hanging around doing nothing, they are their for the graphical detail...either in textures or meshs or both.
Certainly staff are employed with the same horrible working hours in a lot of places

A lot of developers employ a temporary "army" of modelers in fact for a few months rather then employing them fall time. (as they dont need them till the game is fully planned).
Its come a long way from the LBA era were you could get away with half-a-dozen modelers or less.

Quote:
No company will risk making a graphically substandard game just to please a few percent of the fans, becouse they cannot afford gambling like this.
But this is what annoys me.
Chooseing not to use realism does not make your graphics substandard.
Stylistic games not only tend to be more expressive at launch, but also look better for longer.

eg. Look how great Okami looks on the PS2 compared to other games of the same era.

Not saying BG&E should be that extreme, merely that making a game look good dosnt automaticaly mean realism!
A game can have top-notch graphics and look amazing without being ultra-detailed.

==============

Anyway, more (imo) worrying news;

BG&E2 to be made more casual;
http://server1.megagames.com/news/ht...algamers.shtml

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  #85  
Old 2008-06-08, 03:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post

Anyway, more (imo) worrying news;

BG&E2 to be made more casual;
http://server1.megagames.com/news/ht...algamers.shtml

Yeah... that means "we're going to blew it, f**k you"

How was the original BG&E even hard?? I can remember getting killed only afew times... it was just a pleasurable walk in the park.

Playing mass efect right now btw, no game is ok after this actually... every dialogue changes the story in such subtle ways! Talking with people in it is like talking with real ppl, I don't even get mad at "wtf are you talking about!" As I do with most, that's the degree it lets you to customize it character and story-wise. And it's like a bad ass sci-fi movie.
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  #86  
Old 2008-06-08, 10:28
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there were a couple of parts in BG&E that were quite difficult

of course it's not where near MEAT CIRCUS!!1!
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  #87  
Old 2008-06-08, 19:42
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The end boss and occasionaly a race I found hard.
But it was still a rather laid back game (in a good way).

Besides, I dont even think they are talking about difficulty here.
I think they are talking about complexcity....they want to make the game more simple.
Which probably translates to "less to do", which translates to "less interactive" which translates too "cheaper to make".
Like compareing Rayman with Rayman Raving Rabits Rubbish.

I hope I am wrong, of course.
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  #88  
Old 2008-06-08, 21:37
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Quote:
ChaosFish: Do you intend to make LBA3 a more easy games that an average audience would like? Or maybe a more difficult game that other audience will like better?

Frederick Raynal: LBA3 easy or challenging is still a big question. I would say both, is it possible ?
I think it's possible. But never decide to just make the game easy by aiming at a stupid audience, it would be a mistake.
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  #89  
Old 2008-06-09, 10:14
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Wow, great news. It seams I have more 1 or 2 years to accomplish the gam.
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  #90  
Old 2008-06-09, 15:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
I think it's possible. But never decide to just make the game easy by aiming at a stupid audience, it would be a mistake.
Both is certainly possible.

Mario Galaxy has one of the most perfect examples of difficulty I have seen.
It both can be played very casualy, but has plenty of challanging bits for the more hardcore player.

I think the key is to ensure theres optional bits that lend challangeing, or a few ways of doing the same thing.

Of course, the flipside of this is it takes longer to develope...as parts of the game wont be seen by all players.
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  #91  
Old 2008-06-09, 18:06
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The hardest parts of Mario Galaxy are still too easy in my opinion. Just compare it to games like Super Mario Bros.
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  #92  
Old 2008-06-09, 18:39
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Mario Brothers is piss-easy.
Play it again, your just remembering it harder because you were younger probably
Mario2 is hard in a few places, then Mario3 went easy again.
Mario World was also a lot easier and smaller then I remember. (96 levels seems a lot till you replay it all).
All cracking games though.

And Purple Coin Lugia too easy O_o
Or those challenge levels?
Wow you must be good.
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  #93  
Old 2008-06-09, 19:15
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I had a few problems with Purple Coins Luigi and the Challenge levels, but I didn't need more than 3 to maybe 5 tries. (except for the racing) The hardest levels for me were Purple Coins in the Dusty Dunes Galaxy, and the one-life boss fight in the Ghost Galaxy.

I have quite endless tries on World 8 of the original SMB though, and only reached the castle once in them. I'm also stuck in World 8-4 in SMB: The Lost Levels, in World 7 in SMB 2 and in some place in SMB 3 as well.
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  #94  
Old 2008-06-09, 20:14
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lay off Mario Galaxy guys back on BG&E 2
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  #95  
Old 2008-06-09, 20:34
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Point is, modern games are too easy.
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  #96  
Old 2008-06-09, 20:50
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I won't agree with that When I play every game that looked challanging back in the days, it's really easy now. It's not the games that got simpler, you just find them easier.
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  #97  
Old 2008-06-09, 20:54
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Yes and No.
A lot of games in the past were only harder because you had a reply them a heck of a lot more.
These days, games often let you retry something from a point much closer to where you "died".

Also many old games had a lot more "unfair" deaths, where the only way of avoiding them was to memorise them from previous attempts. (eg, "instant death" such as in Alone in the Dark 1).

Your also given a lot more "hit points" these days.
In old Zelda games, you had one hit point per heart piece. These days theres half and even quater hits to make your hearts last longer.
If it wasnt for that, fighting would probably be harder. (after all, your doing more these days).

But back ontopic, this does kinda tie into BG&E.

When talking of game difficulty, or how "casual" it is, theres both very right ways too do it and very wrong ways to do it.
Given that, imho, BG&E1 didnt have any unfair deaths, nearly no backtracking, and a decent number of hitpoints, I dont see how it can be more "casual" without being the wrong sort of easier.
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  #98  
Old 2008-06-10, 18:56
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Quote:
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Point is, modern games are too easy.
Yes, most of the games now-a-days take less then 10 hours to beat and we need to pay a lot for few hours of pleasure. The other day I finish a PSP game in 4h and in speedrun it can be beat in 1h30. Will I pay 50/60€ for a 4h game?! Hmmm... no!!
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  #99  
Old 2008-06-10, 19:12
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for example I am playing Croc 2 right now ( a 2000 game ) ... please believe me that I've spent 10 hours playing like hell, it's EXTREMELY fun, addictive and guess what ... the pause menu says 2% completed now that's what I CALL A GAME !!!
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  #100  
Old 2008-06-10, 20:32
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Well you guys can write whatever you want about modern games, but after finishing Mass Effect I officially add it to my "best games EVER" list.
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