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  #26  
Old 2008-06-05, 18:29
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Too many stupid things are alive for me to believe in survival of the fittest.


Ah, so the benevolent creator made stupid pointless life forms?
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2008-06-05 at 18:40.
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  #27  
Old 2008-06-05, 18:55
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Interesting how people are trying to put me on one side or the other now... I'm trying to be objective here, so I'm not going to put myself on either side.
A theory put forth by my SPU teacher: We were created just 5 seconds ago with a whole new host of memories and there's no way you can prove that that didn't happen. There's no way you can state anything for 100% certain, and that's why this argument seems so stupid to me, because it can't go anywhere.
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  #28  
Old 2008-06-05, 19:21
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Well, that's a little extreme isn't it?

Doesn't the proposal that "it's possible that all of our memories are fake" nullifies almost every arguement in existance?

Bottom line is: The Theory behind Evolution may have flaws but it's the best theory we have so far. Religion does not have to oppose scientific observation, but if somebody choses to deny Evolution via religious texts, then it's that person's personal religious preference and does not belong in a scientific forum.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that you should never say in a scientific forum that, "if A is false, then B is surely true."
In this case, one shouldn't say that "because Evolution is false, clearly Creationism is true."

Yes, it's true that for the longest time people would laugh at anybody who proposed that the universe is composed of tiny entities called atoms. This is because back in Ancient Greece there wasn't much proof that atoms do exist. Many years later, people were able to prove the existance of atoms through new technologies.

Similarly, one could say that Creationism is true, we just don't have the technology to find the facts we need. And maybe that's corrent. Maybe it isn't. Regardless, the scientific community simply cannot blindly follow a theory that doesn't have compelling facts. Maybe one day in the future we'll be able to prove that Evolution was a result of Intelligent Design or that the Big Boom originated in New Mexico, but until then, we gotta rely on the theory with the most solid ground.

Creationism has no ground as far as sceintific proof is concerned. If you believe that God created all life, that's fine, but it's a religoius opinion not a scientific one.

Last edited by Lightwing; 2008-06-05 at 19:42.
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  #29  
Old 2008-06-05, 19:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia View Post
A theory put forth by my SPU teacher: We were created just 5 seconds ago with a whole new host of memories and there's no way you can prove that that didn't happen. There's no way you can state anything for 100% certain, and that's why this argument seems so stupid to me, because it can't go anywhere.
Of course it's possible. It's also insane to believe it.
Insane not because it's not possible, but because insanity by definition is not acting according to an external reality.
External reality is what we grasp with our senses. If you grasp a different reality than mine, and yet we ultimately share the same reality, then in my reality, you're insane.
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  #30  
Old 2008-06-05, 22:24
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...

What does that have to do with anything?

Now you're just engaging in psychobable.
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  #31  
Old 2008-06-05, 22:26
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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What's wrong with what I said? I'm eager to know.
Also, what's psychobable?
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  #32  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:06
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Where is this amazing evidence the evolution is true?

It's the same as someone who said earlier that if you disregard or disprove evolution, Christianity is obviously right; I could easily say the same about taking religion out of the equation, so evolution is right.
But how do you explain the universe starting? Two atoms just popped out out of nowhere, and the big-bang happened? I mean, come on guys (and educated females), that's even less possible.

Also, in the Bible, it clearly states that in heaven, a day is worth over 1000 years one earth, which means that it is fesable, and many happenings in the Bible are possible. The flood with Noah? The answer (or rather the question you should be asking yourself): where did the Gulf of Mexico come from, and, if there wasn't any other divine intervention, what were the odds that a madman built an enormous boat for no reason?

Also, where do birds come from if evolution is true? And why did Do-Do's exist? They had wings, but were too small to fly, and they couldn't run fast, so theoretically they should have 'evolved' into either small fast running birds, or normal birds (also, how come we have birds that can't fly but have wings?).

Also, yes, there aren't too many scientific facts to support the Bible, but also, the scientific facts that the world has come up with to support evolution have far too many flaws to be feasible, and proving the Bible wrong hasn't happened.

Now then, before this post gets flamed to a crisp:
LBAWin: Either my sister or I told you, not to sure which.
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Last edited by Dino-Fly; 2008-06-05 at 23:35.
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  #33  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:10
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Dino-fly:
Did you actually read Origin of the Species?

I mean, what's up with criticizing a theory you don't understand?
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  #34  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:17
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Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
Dino-fly:
Did you actually read Origin of the Species?

I mean, what's up with criticizing a theory you don't understand?
lol

I'm pretty sure I understand it.
And I really don't want to write an essay right now.

BTW, how did senses come about? And advanced organs like eyes, that is one thing about evolution I don't understand.
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  #35  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:21
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I suggest you read Darkflame's post here.
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  #36  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:27
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How does that fit in to my question?
That talking pigs are more possible?
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  #37  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:34
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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That doesn't answer your question (if I weren't tired right now I'd try to answer that), but it does show how ridiculous it is to believe we must have been created by higher intelligence because of how complicated we are, while that higher intelligence requires no explanation.
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  #38  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:36
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What's wrong with what you said, CF, is that it has nothing to do with anything except insanity, which is not what this topic is about.
From wikipedia: Psychobabble is a customarily pejorative term to denote technical jargon that is used outside of its intended purpose in psychology. The term implies that the speaker lacks the experience and understanding necessary for proper use of a given psychological term.
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  #39  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly View Post
lol

I'm pretty sure I understand it.
And I really don't want to write an essay right now.

BTW, how did senses come about? And advanced organs like eyes, that is one thing about evolution I don't understand.
Oh, you're pretty sure you understand it. This is according to what research?
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  #40  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly View Post
Where is this amazing evidence the evolution is true?


Also, where do birds come from if evolution is true?
Read the Origin of Species. Then go read other material on evolution that has been published by scientists since then.

You're arguing against evolution yet you have no idea what evolution is.

The Theory of Evolution is a lot more complicated than a few descriptions you've read in Anti-Evolution essays and wikipedia.

When you speak such words as "where do birds come from if evolution is true," you basically reveal to everyone that you know little about the subject.
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  #41  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:53
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CF's statement sounds right to me. If a higher being created us then where did the higher being come from? Another higher being? Because if it's obsurd that we were created out of chance, then the higher being had to have been made by a higher being also and so forth. Impossible. The Christianity explanation is that God is from before time and we were created in his image, but it misses a key factor of where did his image come from in the first place? It just so happened that God is like that? If that's feasable then: why can't humans, from evolution be feasable? The difference being evolution actually has evidence towards it. Evidence being living(/lived) creatures of similar species. Mammoth vs Elephant = proof in my opinion.

This VERY common picture sums it up:


You want evidence? Look around you. Just like the gravity/apple thing you can see the evidence.

Living things evolve and adapt to survive. It's all about survival - we ended up being the most dominant species on the planet because we evolved and adapted language, communication allowing us to work together a lot more efficiently than others.

Of course, it's far more complex than how I can describe.
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  #42  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia View Post
What's wrong with what you said, CF, is that it has nothing to do with anything except insanity, which is not what this topic is about.
From wikipedia: Psychobabble is a customarily pejorative term to denote technical jargon that is used outside of its intended purpose in psychology. The term implies that the speaker lacks the experience and understanding necessary for proper use of a given psychological term.
The wikipedia definition is a bit harsh. I wasn't implying that Ido doesn't have experience or understanding.
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  #43  
Old 2008-06-05, 23:59
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Quote:
Also, where do birds come from if evolution is true?


Evolution explains where birds come from too. They're living creatures aswell. A VERY LONG time ago creatures from a certain species could've adapted wings to survive in a certain condition whereas others from their species in different conditions wouldn't need them.

(Again, I'm totally simplifying it, it's way more complex)

You must keep in mind adaptation and evolution take a VERY LONG time especially on very complex creatures like today's animals. Think of it as the cells adapting rather than the body as a whole.
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  #44  
Old 2008-06-06, 00:00
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
Do the evolution.
 
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But how do you explain the universe starting? Two atoms just popped out out of nowhere, and the big-bang happened? I mean, come on guys (and educated females), that's even less possible.
There is a probability that a new universe could start under your chair, you know that? Really, physics has measured it, there is even fear among some thick-heads that a similar event might be caused at CERN when the new collider goes online...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly
The flood with Noah? The answer (or rather the question you should be asking yourself): where did the Gulf of Mexico come from, and, if there wasn't any other divine intervention, what were the odds that a madman built an enormous boat for no reason?
My dear and esteemed, greatly educated colleague, the gulf of Mexico is a meteor impact site, the Yucatan event is considered the impact that was one of the reasons of the mass extinction 65 million years ago.

There is not enough water on earth, to flood all land. However the flood account happens in many cultures and most likely it is the event cosed by the end of the last ice age, where a huge sweet water lake made from the thawing glaciers suddenly fell into the ocean, raising sea level a 100 meters and disturbing the gulf stream. That's when england became an island, and when water crashed through Gibraltar, flooding the enclosed basin of the modern Mediterranean sea, which was just a damp depresion mostly covered by lakes(incidentally, a great land to farm, if people lived there, hundreds of thousands might have died - here's your flood).

Incidentally, an account of a global catastrophe is present in cultures all around the world, and is not exclusive to the Bible(this one, among most of the old testament was copied from Babylonian mythology, that was copied from Sumerian myths - none of them had it in a form of a one God btw.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly
Also, where do birds come from if evolution is true? And why did Do-Do's exist? They had wings, but were too small to fly, and they couldn't run fast, so theoretically they should have 'evolved' into either small fast running birds, or normal birds (also, how come we have birds that can't fly but have wings?).
One word, dinosaurs. Modern Gobi findings gave proof that most sauropods had feathers, you should remember from school at least, a primitive bird-like creature that couldn't fly but used it's feathers to glide from tree to tree. The origins of feathers where most likely protection from the elements, not flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-fly
But also, the scientific facts that the world has come up with to support evolution have far too many flaws to be feasible
That's your opinion, which is wrong btw.


Echomote, that very image creates a lot of misunderstandings. There is a whole human evolution tree, it's not a straight path. Also there are hundreds of findings of "medium forms" that are between those steps, and are often hard to assign a category.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2008-06-06 at 00:06.
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  #45  
Old 2008-06-06, 01:08
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Christianity has not a single piece of proof. Stop claiming it has anything.
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  #46  
Old 2008-06-06, 01:27
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HEY GUYS! THE EARTH IS LIKE 6000 YEARS OLD AND ALL LIFE WAS CREATED IN LIKE A DAY OR SOEMTHGN!

Once I used to give a shit about these arguments, but now I just think they're stupid.
arguments without proof are useless, shut the fuck up.
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  #47  
Old 2008-06-06, 01:58
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
Do the evolution.
 
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Originally Posted by elmuerte View Post
Christianity has not a single piece of proof. Stop claiming it has anything.
No religion has...
Blind faith and religion are inseparable.
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  #48  
Old 2008-06-06, 01:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
that very image creates a lot of misunderstandings. There is a whole human evolution tree, it's not a straight path. Also there are hundreds of findings of "medium forms" that are between those steps, and are often hard to assign a category.
I know that, but it's still a fantastic summary example, no?

I put in the "Of course, it's far more complex than how I can describe." not because I don't know any more than that, just that I for some reason lack the ability to write about stuff (I always miss out the important stuff etc) if that makes sense...? Guess that's why I got a C in English language... I can't even explain this properly Summary: I'm no good at expressing my thoughts.


Quote:
arguments without proof are useless, shut the fuck up.
I also think the arguments so far used agaisnt evolution in this thread is crap, but I definitely get some kind of buzz reading and discussing it. I like this thread.

Last edited by Echomote; 2008-06-06 at 02:06.
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  #49  
Old 2008-06-06, 04:16
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Originally Posted by Echomote View Post
The Christianity explanation is that God is from before time and we were created in his image,[...]
BEFORE TIME. Whoever wrote this is a genius. A very stupid genius, because they doesn't understand the concept of time. Same as saying "Outside space".

It's pretty clever though, because when you read something like that, chances are you'll be lost in awe. "I can't comprehend it, therefor it must be brilliant!"

I like this thread too btw, it's awesome.
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  #50  
Old 2008-06-06, 10:55
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Why this tendency to evolution is here in the first place is not a question of science. Science just describes the process but gives no meaning to it. But the "tools" we made cause of science kinda make science itself a factor in what it is trying to describe, but that is perhaps another story.

The idea of a big bang puts me in awe just like maybe some people are being put there by stories or experiences with something they get to maybe call god.



But back to the topic. I belief madness and mimicry have a bigger role in evolution then is given credit for in current schoolbooks. But in fact thats just something i now say to sound interesting. And i am not even gonna try finding evidence for it. But you can join me in this by mimicing my madness.
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Last edited by Odysseus; 2008-06-06 at 15:10.
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