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  #26  
Old 2010-03-24, 22:54
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The paddle is used by Space Invaders Extreme 1 and 2 (which are both good games, but really the same), and Arkanoid DS (which is supposed to be really bad). The problem about the paddle is that it is only available in Japan. I imported one (works fine as there is no region lock) but they are getting really expensive. I paid 25€ for mine, now you're lucky when you get one for €30 and not €45.

They are really getting too expensive for what they are worth, you really only can use them for one proper game. And that game is Space Invaders. But yeah, when you use it, it works fine. No D-Pad or analogue stick could allow such smooth control of the spaceship. In fact, if you don't play the game with the Paddle, it's pretty bad.
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  #27  
Old 2010-03-24, 23:49
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Paddle controllers rule for games like Tempest.

Every game has its "ideal" controller which your never going to beat.
But, untill we can emulate every controller with some glove or nural interface, console makers will have to figure out the "most usefull" for their standard controller.
That is, a controller that fits the most genre's.

Personally I think Nintendo did pretty good with the Wii. What it lose's due to not having a second analogue, it makes up for by having a pointer functions, and its comfortable split design.
That said, its not going to cope well for genre's like fighting games. Things that need lots of buttons its weak at. Just like normal controllers are weak for games that would need pointer functions (like a mouse).

Pro's and Con's to everything, always.
Its mostly a question of how much you can put on the controller while still keeping it comfortable and flexible.
Id be interested to see how this DS deals with the analogue stick. Hopefully better then Sony did on the PSP.

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Looks fun, but I agree with Jasiek, I don't see what kind of improvement it would bring to games. Games have a 3D effect for quite a long time now, according to the video, this 3D effect is nothing more than repositionning the camera without buttons.
You honestly dont think this would be an improvement
Saying games have had 3D for awhile is mixing up types of 3D. Also, while it is true that you could replace headtracking with manual camera movement, your never going to line it up to your eye in precisely the same way, and it would be a lot of work.

And, as has been mentioned, better depth perception. Gives your brain more to work with as it process's the game environment.

--
Actually, this all reminds me of a bit from futurama where Lela is moving a telescope left and right quickly to see how far away something is :P
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  #28  
Old 2010-03-25, 00:23
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Sweet fancy moses!

That's so cool.
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  #29  
Old 2010-03-25, 01:37
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You honestly dont think this would be an improvement
Call me stupid for not seeing this before. Yep just that, stupid.

That is awesome.
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  #30  
Old 2010-03-25, 05:09
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The only game I'm really excited about for Wii is Mario Galaxy 2. Otherwise, meh.
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  #31  
Old 2010-03-25, 13:28
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The only game I'm really excited about for Wii is Mario Galaxy 2. Otherwise, meh.
Let's see.

There's Monster Hunter 3. But I'm not excited about it yet, I don't know how good exactly it will be, and I still haven't really understood what the game is about.

Of course there's Metroid Other M, but I'm a bit skeptical about how that 2D/3D perspective changing is turning out to be according to interviews.

Zelda, there is not enough known about it at this point.

There's Trackmania Wii, which is, well, Trackmania ported to the Wii.

And... that's about it. I kinda have to agree with you there.
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  #32  
Old 2010-03-25, 16:43
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Fragile, Red Steal 2 have my eye.
Epic Mickey is worth keeping an eye on, given who's developing it.
The Tower Of Shadow looks a cool concept, not sure it will stretch to a full game, but I hope it isnt ignored.
Pikmin 3 is also on the table...sometime. Ditto for Tales of Graces.

Also I think I'll get Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands.
If you can stand the developer hype a bit;
http://www.gametrailers.com/game/pri...orgotten/12773
It does look pretty good. For once the Wii might end up with the best version.
---
Also, I'm actually looking forward to Eleedees2. Bugger all seen of it, but the first game was lovely and quite underrated. Its only real flaw was the doors....
Still , sequel was announced just not seen.
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  #33  
Old 2010-03-25, 17:13
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Hm, just read a review of WarioWare D.I.Y.

Sounds like it is something to look into. Though I still haven't gotten WarioWare Twisted for the GBA.

Maybe we should make a list of must-have DS games according to our opinion. I really have no overview any more.

Last edited by Kobold; 2010-03-25 at 17:44.
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  #34  
Old 2010-03-26, 03:07
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Let's see.

There's Monster Hunter 3. But I'm not excited about it yet, I don't know how good exactly it will be, and I still haven't really understood what the game is about.

Of course there's Metroid Other M, but I'm a bit skeptical about how that 2D/3D perspective changing is turning out to be according to interviews.

Zelda, there is not enough known about it at this point.

There's Trackmania Wii, which is, well, Trackmania ported to the Wii.

And... that's about it. I kinda have to agree with you there.
Yeah, I really think the general Ninty exclusives are all that really stands out. Red Steel 2 might be interesting from a technical standpoint, but it had better set the bar since it looks like Natal and Move look to have the 1:1 thing down pat.
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  #35  
Old 2010-03-26, 12:35
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The hardware isn't a problem, its the software.
Sony's probably even using the exact same gyro's as Nintendos MP. (and for swordfighting stuff, that's all your going to be using...the pointer will be for shooting, which has been perfectly accurate since the Wiis launch).
I also, unless I missed something, haven't actually seen any decent looking, traditional, 1:1 game on the PS3 yet. Seems more like the Wii at the start, mostly minigames and demo's.

Natal meanwhile still badly needs a nunchuck.
===

Anyway, Red Steal 2 seems to be getting reviews between 80-100.
Basically blows the water out of the first game, but criticism's seem to be that its fairly short.
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  #36  
Old 2010-03-26, 16:57
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I also, unless I missed something, haven't actually seen any decent looking, traditional, 1:1 game on the PS3 yet. Seems more like the Wii at the start, mostly minigames and demo's.

Natal meanwhile still badly needs a nunchuck.
It's not even out yet, so I'd give them a bit of time.

As far as 1:1 games on the Wii, the closest are Red Steel 2 and Tiger Woods golf. And even then, it's not really 1:1. Motionplus is just measuring the speed of the swing (golf), or horizontal/vertical swipes (in the case of RS2). So if I were Ninty, I'd definitely be keeping my eyes open with the limits on their hardware and the fact that their competitors are coming out with (potentially) better alternatives and better hardware in general.
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  #37  
Old 2010-03-26, 17:01
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In my opinion, it doesn't really matter how good the hardware is, but how good games make use of it. The DS's touch screen is only so great because there are so many games that utilize it perfectly.

Since the release of Wii Sports Resort, however, you can still count the number of good games using Wii Motion Plus on one hand. I know I haven't used it ever since last summer. I can very well imagine the Playstation Remote and Natal meeting the same fate.
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  #38  
Old 2010-03-26, 19:17
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Since the release of Wii Sports Resort, however, you can still count the number of good games using Wii Motion Plus on one hand. I know I haven't used it ever since last summer. I can very well imagine the Playstation Remote and Natal meeting the same fate.
Absolutely. I really am tired of the motion trend anyways. I sincerely hope that motion goes the way of the dodo in the next generation of consoles. While I appreciate innovation, and Ninty did come up with something quite fun, by and large most developers aren't putting the time or development costs into making *quality* titles with this feature. I haven't found any titles on PS3 that use the Sixaxis motion features in any meaningful way, with the possible exception of Folklore. Those that do feel tacked-on and imprecise.

I like the way in which New Super Mario Bros. Wii uses the motion controls. It's still fundamentally traditional but throws in the motion in gestures that make sense.
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  #39  
Old 2010-03-26, 21:17
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Quote:
Since the release of Wii Sports Resort, however, you can still count the number of good games using Wii Motion Plus on one hand
A hand? Two figures more like.

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As far as 1:1 games on the Wii, the closest are Red Steel 2 and Tiger Woods golf. And even then, it's not really 1:1. Motionplus is just measuring the speed of the swing (golf), or horizontal/vertical swipes (in the case of RS2). So if I were Ninty, I'd definitely be keeping my eyes open with the limits on their hardware and the fact that their competitors are coming out with (potentially) better alternatives and better hardware in general.
As I said, its not the hardware.
You can see the 1:1 working just fine in a few wiisports resorts games.
Its the software.

That said, Red Steal 2 does sense more then horizontal/vertical;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5sTZI_KSgE
Seems to be almost any angle slash. (at least, I count 4 or so different diagonals as well as horizontal/vertical...I think its angle angle)

I cant speak for the golf game as I haven't played it or seen anything of it, but if they are just using speed, then they arnt really using motion plus at all.

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Absolutely. I really am tired of the motion trend anyways. I sincerely hope that motion goes the way of the dodo in the next generation of consoles. While I appreciate innovation, and Ninty did come up with something quite fun, by and large most developers aren't putting the time or development costs into making *quality* titles with this feature.
Id rather they learnt to use a feature well, rather then dumping it because they are too set in their ways to bother. Sometimes tech just takes awhile to be best used.
Stuff like sword fighting isnt just better on motion controlls its a whole new gameplay. We cant lose that. And we certainly cant lose pointer functionality.
The tech's proved itself. Even if it is only in a handfull of games.

The problem is developers are still 90% focused on graphics. They have their production workflow set up quite slickly now, using a lot of premade code even if they arnt using an existing engine.
Problem is, they just arnt equipped for true 1:1 games. You need to code character movements (both player and enemy) dynamically....canned animations just dont work with unpredictable human inputs.

I think Euphoria and tech like it could help. maybe.
But fundamentally, we have to switch away from premade animations "triggered" by button press's or gestures to truly evolve gameplay.
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  #40  
Old 2010-03-26, 21:26
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A hand? Two figures more like.
That's actually what I was thinking, I was just being careful in case I somehow oversaw one.
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  #41  
Old 2010-03-26, 22:00
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Well, there's 3 that need it if you count red steal. (which isnt out yet)
Theres a few more enhanced by it. I seem to remember some Tennis Game was getting pretty good reviews with it, but it was still optional.

Personally I'm shocked there isnt at least a bunch of WiiWare games making use of it. It doesn't seem that hard to get the data, judging by the home-brew/GlovePIE stuff.
Given that WiiWare games are often more abstract/puzzle-like anyway (or 2D), they dont have the same excuse of animations being hard either.
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  #42  
Old 2010-03-26, 22:35
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Id rather they learnt to use a feature well, rather then dumping it because they are too set in their ways to bother. Sometimes tech just takes awhile to be best used.
Stuff like sword fighting isnt just better on motion controlls its a whole new gameplay. We cant lose that. And we certainly cant lose pointer functionality.
The tech's proved itself. Even if it is only in a handfull of games.

The problem is developers are still 90% focused on graphics. They have their production workflow set up quite slickly now, using a lot of premade code even if they arnt using an existing engine.
Problem is, they just arnt equipped for true 1:1 games. You need to code character movements (both player and enemy) dynamically....canned animations just dont work with unpredictable human inputs.

I think Euphoria and tech like it could help. maybe.
But fundamentally, we have to switch away from premade animations "triggered" by button press's or gestures to truly evolve gameplay.
I don't think the tech has proved itself at all. I think by and large, it has cashed in on the casual community but by and large, there are few *quality* games that make motion worthwhile. Ergo, look at Mario Galaxy. A great game that barely uses motion control for anything. I can't speak for Red Steel 2 but I haven't played any game to date that made me say, "Wow, this would be so much better if it had motion controls." Even funnier is that pulse monitor Ninty is bringing out. That looks to be hysterical, Miyamoto joked about using it to adjust difficulty in Zelda. Meh. It seems totally unnecessary. That's what motion control is right now - unnecessary. There are plenty of quality titles that don't need it, and only a few that you could say it would, if done properly, enhance the experience. I'm thinking mostly FPS's, too. Something where human-like aim, besides the precision of a keyboard and mouse, could be a real revelation in terms of experience.

I don't think the claim that devs are 90% about graphics is entirely fair. There are several games this gen that do both well, and that is how it should be. I think the Wii gets full of shovelware, which is a big (and fair) criticism, and thus the riposte is that the other consoles only care about graphics. It's just not true. All of the consoles have great games this gen. I am simply angry with Nintendo because they Wii is so overwhelmingly gimped in terms of hardware and features that it makes a multi-console purchase easy for anyone who owns either/both a 360 or PS3.

Take Ghostbusters for example...a game that by all accounts would have been kicky on the Wii, with a control scheme that seems perfectly suited for that type of game. Then we found out that a separate, inferior dev team handled the Wii version. And it got gimped on features. And it lacked online. And it looked pretty meh.

That's why I guess I dislike the motion controls, although I can understand Ninty's use of them. They never set out to compete hardware wise, but their innovation has served them well thus far in the console competition. They've struck a chord with casual gamers like never before with things like Wii Fit, which is a great business model for them.

But again, I just don't think the motion control is really where it's at. I get that they have to continue to try and perfect the technology, but to be honest, if it's forced and gimped, then it isn't making a strong case. I'll be interested to see how Sony's and Microsoft's products compare, particularly if they take away some of the casual market (which I don't see happening considering the add-ons are separate and expensive). But if I had the choice between a Wii and a PS3/360 with motion controls...it would be the latter each and every time, simply because the features are so lopsided in that direction, and it isn't even close.
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  #43  
Old 2010-04-30, 01:28
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Quote:
I don't think the tech has proved itself at all.....there are few *quality* games that make motion worthwhile.
But it only takes 1 example to prove the tech.
I think even simple stuff like WiiBaseball (wiimote) or WiiSwordFighting (motionplus) proves that much. That sort of gameplay is only possible due to the motion controls. You can have games with those themes on other systems, but the gameplay would be completely different.

The pointer functionality meanwhile is proved just about everywhere. Basically any FPS game, or any point and click, game on the Wii.

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I can't speak for Red Steel 2 but I haven't played any game to date that made me say, "Wow, this would be so much better if it had motion controls."
Any console FPS game played on anything other then a Wiimote feels primitive to me now. Its like playing a 3d platformer using a D-Pad.

Quote:
Even funnier is that pulse monitor Ninty is bringing out. That looks to be hysterical, Miyamoto joked about using it to adjust difficulty in Zelda. Meh. It seems totally unnecessary. That's what motion control is right now - unnecessary.
Everything is unnesscery, the question is whats best.
It seems quite obvious to me that motion controll and pointer functionality clearly suits some genre's much better then an anaologue stick.
But...

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Ergo, look at Mario Galaxy. A great game that barely uses motion control for anything.
likewise, some genre's are best suited with a stick and not motion controlls.
(allthough, honestly, you use the pointer a heck of a lot in galaxy, people just forget it)

The brillent thing about this is you dont have to choose. Just like the DS doesnt need to use its touchscreen for all games, the Wiimote doesnt have to be used for all its games either. Indeed, it shouldn't be.

I think I could even make a (near) universal rule about when its best suited for a game; If the game is mostly about a character holding an object and moving it about, then go for MC. So, that would be a tennis racket, a sword etc The movements of the player should map to the thing being held in an analogue way.

If, however, your gesture mapping ("shake nunchuck to reload!"), your using mc just like a digital button, and its almost certainly completely inappropriate to the game.

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I don't think the claim that devs are 90% about graphics is entirely fair.
Actually, your right. That was flat out wrong of me to say.
Its more publishers that are focused on graphics.

It is true, however, that most developers have very fixed workflows now. Moving away from canned animations will be quite expensive for most of them.
A lot of publishers have the crap attitude that just because the wii isnt "HD" that you can slash budgets by 10times. Which just isnt true at all, and of course that leads to inferior games.
Good motion control takes a more investment in the coding then (a equilivent) normal game would. But I just dont think its being done. At least, outside Nintendo.

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I'll be interested to see how Sony's and Microsoft's products compare,
And I still say Microsoft needs a nunchuck for Natal :P
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  #44  
Old 2010-04-30, 13:28
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I still don't think that the PS3 motion controller thing and Natal will help Microsoft and Sony much, regardless of how good/better than the Wii they are. When you release add-ons in the middle of a console's life cycle, the majority of games don't use the add-on and the majority of players don't want to pay for it unless there are many games that utilize it.

On the Wii, you can see the effect. Wii Motion Plus has a lack of games. And that Wii Speak that has been out for a year and a half now has only been used in one good game so far. And that game is not even by Nintendo.
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Old 2010-04-30, 13:48
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Anyway, random Nintendo news;
======
Conduit 2 Announced - Hopefully good. The first game clearly had a lot of effort, even if it only was a 7/10 style result. If they can make the same jump that Killzone did between its first and season game, this could be a classic.
Also, more decent online multiplayer Wii games would help the system.

The Last Story (Wii)

- looking interesting allthough not much info. I still find the name hilarious given its by the Final Fantasy creator.

Okamiden (aka Okami2) - The trailer makes it looks like its sticking very close to the original, despite being on the DS.
http://www.cubed3.com/news/14027
Impressive stuff.

Fragile/Fragile dreams (Wii) -

Getting some good reviews (http://www.cubed3.com/review/835). I only wish I had time to play it :P
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  #46  
Old 2010-04-30, 13:53
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Metroid "Other M" Gameplay trailer -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrAWY...layer_embedded

Actually looking pretty darn good.
I was a massive fan of Retro's games, and was very skeptical of this game. But now I'm quite excited.
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  #47  
Old 2010-04-30, 14:37
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But it only takes 1 example to prove the tech.
I think even simple stuff like WiiBaseball (wiimote) or WiiSwordFighting (motionplus) proves that much. That sort of gameplay is only possible due to the motion controls. You can have games with those themes on other systems, but the gameplay would be completely different.
I think you need more than what amounts to two technical demos to "prove" the technology. Again, I stress that until games with motion controls are *consistently* improved by having them and not merely tacked on or, at their worse, hindering controls in comparison to traditional methods, I don't buy the lasting power of motion controls. Much like Sony pushing 3D - which I think is going to fail hard because the technology is ridiculously limited to the earliest of early adopters - I don't think motion controls have proven themselves to be anything more than a fad (as of yet). With Microsoft and Sony getting into the motion game, we can get a better idea of how the next console generation will handle motion.

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The pointer functionality meanwhile is proved just about everywhere. Basically any FPS game, or any point and click, game on the Wii.
Ask any FPS fan to get rid of their mouse and keyboard. I'd estimate that the vast majority would never do it.

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Any console FPS game played on anything other then a Wiimote feels primitive to me now. Its like playing a 3d platformer using a D-Pad.
Agree somewhat. Sure console joysticks are inferior when it comes to FPS. There isn't really much competition there.



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Everything is unnesscery, the question is whats best.
It seems quite obvious to me that motion controll and pointer functionality clearly suits some genre's much better then an anaologue stick.
But...likewise, some genre's are best suited with a stick and not motion controlls. (allthough, honestly, you use the pointer a heck of a lot in galaxy, people just forget it)
Are you talking about the swirling about of the wiimote to collect the little star gems or whatever they were called? That was pretty...useless. Although you're right, I guess you did it all the time. But as for my own feeling, I still have yet to find a game this generation that made me say, "Wow, I felt like motion controls really added to the experience" or alternatively, "Wow, motion controls (in their current state) really would make this experience better."

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The brillent thing about this is you dont have to choose. Just like the DS doesnt need to use its touchscreen for all games, the Wiimote doesnt have to be used for all its games either. Indeed, it shouldn't be.

I think I could even make a (near) universal rule about when its best suited for a game; If the game is mostly about a character holding an object and moving it about, then go for MC. So, that would be a tennis racket, a sword etc The movements of the player should map to the thing being held in an analogue way.

If, however, your gesture mapping ("shake nunchuck to reload!"), your using mc just like a digital button, and its almost certainly completely inappropriate to the game.
That's not actually a bad rule of thumb. Though as I scan my games this gen, I can only see two where that would apply: WiiSports, Twilight Princess. The remainder include other platformers, FPS/TPS, etc. which wouldn't really fit that motif.


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It is true, however, that most developers have very fixed workflows now. Moving away from canned animations will be quite expensive for most of them.
True but what has been done thus far with the Euphoria engine seems to imply that it could be to developers what Unreal/Source has been for several years.

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A lot of publishers have the crap attitude that just because the wii isnt "HD" that you can slash budgets by 10times. Which just isnt true at all, and of course that leads to inferior games.
Good motion control takes a more investment in the coding then (a equilivent) normal game would. But I just dont think its being done. At least, outside Nintendo.
Agreed on all accounts. It really comes down to the question of: are the games being made to suit the controls (ala shovelware) or are the controls enhancing the game experience (mostly Nintendo first-party titles, a handful of third-party ones). It seems to fall so heavily on the first side. Look at Activision...they gave the Wii version a gimped Call of Duty 4 that looks arguably inferior to some end-cycle PS2 titles and the framerate is poor. The motion controls aren't enough to save a bad port, and I think most would agree that the definitive experience is on one of the two normal control consoles.


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And I still say Microsoft needs a nunchuck for Natal :P
Yeah, I'm wondering how the hell they're going to pull that off as well.

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Originally Posted by Kobold View Post
I still don't think that the PS3 motion controller thing and Natal will help Microsoft and Sony much, regardless of how good/better than the Wii they are. When you release add-ons in the middle of a console's life cycle, the majority of games don't use the add-on and the majority of players don't want to pay for it unless there are many games that utilize it.
I see it (much like 3D) as being pushed simply to cash in on the market that Nintendo has generated, although we'll have to wait until they're released to fully judge.

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On the Wii, you can see the effect. Wii Motion Plus has a lack of games. And that Wii Speak that has been out for a year and a half now has only been used in one good game so far. And that game is not even by Nintendo.
WiiSpeak was doomed to fail a.) because of Nintendo's draconian, piss-poor online setup and b.) because it's basically a baby monitor.
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Old 2010-04-30, 15:21
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
WiiSpeak was doomed to fail a.) because of Nintendo's draconian, piss-poor online setup and b.) because it's basically a baby monitor.
I don't know. I got it with Monster Hunter and will probably test it during the next few weeks, I wonder whether it's worth it.
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Old 2010-04-30, 15:35
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I don't know. I got it with Monster Hunter and will probably test it during the next few weeks, I wonder whether it's worth it.
I think Nintendo is overly concerned with parental controls, and this shows. Why not simply enable support for USB headsets...the idea of having a "speaker" seems rather unnecessary. We've been using headsets for two console generations now, not counting microphones for earlier games (like the Pikachu one on N64 if I recall).
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Old 2010-04-30, 15:42
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Yeah. My game came with a warning: "Online communications are unmoderated!"
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